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LS2 Truck Coils vs Audi R8 Red Top Coils

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  • Chomper
    started a topic LS2 Truck Coils vs Audi R8 Red Top Coils

    LS2 Truck Coils vs Audi R8 Red Top Coils

    I'm looking at upgrading my ignition system to support my future hp goals and was wondering if anyone knows which would fare better in high hp applications? We all know how great the LS2/LS7 Truck Coils are but I'd like to know how the R8 coils stack up against them because I'd prefer a coil-on-plug setup over a coil-near-plug setup (fewer wires, less hassle, less cumbersome).

    I've tried to find the answer to this for quite awhile but haven't found one with a clear explanation.

    The LS2 coils have the benefit of being located away from the motor AND have a built in heatsink (awesome!), and would therefore run cooler than most (if not all) other setups but similar results can be had by removing the cover or creating breather vents (albeit these solutions would not be nearly as effective).

    I recall reading somewhere that the max dwell on the LS2/LS7 coils was 5.0 ms and it appears that the R8 coils hold up at about the same dwell cycle. Each also have been said to be quite reliable in high output applications.

    Does anyone on here run the audi coils? What are your experiences with them? Thanks in advance .


    Here is the response I got from Vlad @ Eurocharged awhile back:

    The main benefit of these ignition coils is that once you install them, you can remove your OEM ignior. These coils were tested on a 740whp RB30 we built and we never had any ignition problems while tuning or at the track. Also these coils are much better quality than the LS7 ones and cheaper to buy. They are available at any auto parts store for around then 40$ each. You will notice that your car runs much much smoother with this ignition system.

    We charge 750$ which will include 6 coils and pre made harness for your rb26. We will also provide a pin out diagram so you will be able to wire it up by yourself . (roughly an hour to do)

    Hope this helps.

    Thanks,
    Vlad.

    Email #2:
    We never tested the max dwell time for these coils. Usually when we tune a Haltech system with these coils, we run them @ 5ms. We use BKR7E spark plugs pregapped to 0.9mm (0.036"). Never had any issues.

    Thanks,
    Vlad.
    Last edited by Chomper; 03-30-2015, 02:47 AM.

  • Chomper
    replied
    Originally posted by rvander1992 View Post
    the cost is:

    165 for bracket
    15 for springs
    100? for harness

    Then you gotta get coils. It makes it quite the expensive swap, though i guess if money is no object go for it.
    I work out of an auto-electric shop so I'm just making my own harness... Guess I should have mentioned that sooner lol. It's also why I said I can get the coils for fairly cheap. If I do go that route, I'm either going to buy or make the bracket... Haven't decided that yet. The springs I'll have to buy.

    If gtrkrauss doesn't have the bench test of the coils recorded, I may end up doing a test of my own. I'll just have to rig something up.

    Leave a comment:


  • rvander1992
    replied
    the cost is:

    165 for bracket
    15 for springs
    100? for harness

    Then you gotta get coils. It makes it quite the expensive swap, though i guess if money is no object go for it.

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffersonC
    replied
    Rick at mojo performance builds a kit that mounts the LS coils directly on the plugs. CNC machined mount plate and complete plug&play harness. His website is currently down but you can find him on Facebook
    Last edited by JeffersonC; 04-01-2015, 03:27 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chomper
    replied
    Originally posted by gtrkrauss View Post
    I have Audi R8 coils that I will be testing in my car myself. They should perform just as well as any LS coil and they are pen style for easier mounting.

    I have had a chance to bench test (visually) the R8 coil vs a stock ls2 coil vs a SplitFire. Lets just say i'm excited to see the results of the R8 coils in my car.

    I work at Volkswagen and these coils can be had for around 30 bucks a piece.


    Good luck
    I'd like to know more... You have a pm!

    Originally posted by R32-90 View Post
    Just get LS coils and throw that german and jap **** in the trash

    The heatsinked ones don't really offer any messurable advantage over anything else, so don't be too picky with truck coils, they all work.

    Go to your nearest junkyard and raid some GM pickups and SUVs, 4.8L and 5.3L bieng most common, got a set of 8 coils with thier harness for 30$ at a local pick and pull. Ive yet to find one that didn't work, and the ones on my gtr came from a 320,000km sierra.

    Only real difference between some LS coils over others is overdwell protection (afaik the heatsinked ones will auto-discharge if charged over 5-6ms, they older truck coils have no overdwell). OEM nissan ecu will run them, Ive been running my setup for years now with 4ms and no issues.

    They are also easy as piss to wire in to any RB, just run a dedicated power for them from your battery if you are worried about your OEM harness. It will be a cold day in hell before I pay someone money for such an easy job.
    I'm sure the other coils work fine but if I'm going to shell out any sort of money on a set, I'm going to go as big as possible... Especially since the price differences are minimal. Kind of like getting a large coffee when you really only needed a medium lol. It was to my understanding that the overdwell protection discharge would only kick in if dwell were set above 5.0ms (which is unnecessary on our motors anyway).

    Originally posted by steveo1502 View Post
    Ya there's a few that do coil on plug setup... I have lq9 coils... 40 bucks for coils and wires, made my own harness and bracket, put a relay so it 12 v to the coils .. I have one of those brackets on my 2jz, to run the same coils on the plugs all under the stock cover.... wish I had done the same with my rb but too late now , I already cut notches in the cover for the plug wires

    Very nice lookin' engine bay you got there! I'm told the lq9 coils are a/c delco D585's? After seeing the mojorick bracket, I'm seriously considering that route. If it will fit under the cover, that's just an added bonus.

    Originally posted by Skym View Post
    You're welcome. As far as I know, it's an ignition amp. Takes voltage into module / amp at a lower voltage (say 12 volts) and outputs a higher voltage (say 17.5 volts max).

    There are some ignition amps made in the states for USDM cars, supercars that only activate when on boost and are adjustable with output voltage via a knob in the cabin (more features) -

    http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/A...oostaspark.htm

    Also there's some how to's on Youtube on how to make these types of devices / modules and I think where to buy the parts, etc.



    As shown in post above / previous page.

    But with an ignition amp it most likely won't be needed. With upgraded coilpacks and "without" the ignition amp the higher amp alternator "might" be needed.

    Most upgraded ignition systems have these ignition amps (Motec CDI ignition system for high hp drag Skylines, HKS ignition AMP for stock coil packs on HKS drag R33GTR, etc) so the upgraded alternator is most likely not needed.

    I believe the whole point of the low voltage factory ignition setup is to stop it taking voltage from fuelpump, etc. That's why I believe only a low amp alternator, wiring to suit, low amp fuses are used. Basically designed for all area's of the car (aircon, headlights, fuelpump, etc) to have an equal share of what's available. The ignition amp allows it to remain that way.

    Best to consult electronic experts, tuners, do more research on Motec CDI, HKS CDI / ignition amp, etc. Each system has + and -.



    It's an interesting idea and seemed to work. When the hood was popped on the racecar I saw 2x ignition modules mounted in stock location on top of each other with longer mounting bolts, tube like spacers between the modules on all 4x corners. Had the wiring changed to suit.

    Also I think I remember seeing photo's later on of the 2x ignition modules applied to a UK modified Skyline. Seems rare but is used on some Skylines.
    I doubt that I'll be running an ignition amp or a higher output alternator but we'll see how things go. I'm going to test the car without either and if it's drawing too much power then I'll look at those options.

    You've given me a lot to think about but it's late so I'll have to save it for another day lol.

    Hopefully I can find some more info on the 2x ignition module trick... Not something I would run personally but it wouldn't hurt to know more about it. Might come in handy one day .
    Last edited by Chomper; 04-01-2015, 02:21 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Skym
    replied
    Originally posted by Chomper View Post
    Thanks for the info skym. I'll have to read up some on that hks ignition module. I believe I've come across a few people who have used this in the past so I'll be hitting them up for info soon.
    You're welcome. As far as I know, it's an ignition amp. Takes voltage into module / amp at a lower voltage (say 12 volts) and outputs a higher voltage (say 17.5 volts max).

    There are some ignition amps made in the states for USDM cars, supercars that only activate when on boost and are adjustable with output voltage via a knob in the cabin (more features) -

    http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/A...oostaspark.htm

    Also there's some how to's on Youtube on how to make these types of devices / modules and I think where to buy the parts, etc.

    Originally posted by Chomper View Post
    Do you have a part number for the 120A alternator? Is it off of another Nissan or a factory upgrade for skylines?
    As shown in post above / previous page.

    But with an ignition amp it most likely won't be needed. With upgraded coilpacks and "without" the ignition amp the higher amp alternator "might" be needed.

    Most upgraded ignition systems have these ignition amps (Motec CDI ignition system for high hp drag Skylines, HKS ignition AMP for stock coil packs on HKS drag R33GTR, etc) so the upgraded alternator is most likely not needed.

    I believe the whole point of the low voltage factory ignition setup is to stop it taking voltage from fuelpump, etc. That's why I believe only a low amp alternator, wiring to suit, low amp fuses are used. Basically designed for all area's of the car (aircon, headlights, fuelpump, etc) to have an equal share of what's available. The ignition amp allows it to remain that way.

    Best to consult electronic experts, tuners, do more research on Motec CDI, HKS CDI / ignition amp, etc. Each system has + and -.

    Originally posted by Chomper View Post
    2x igniters is an interesting idea... Although, I'd prefer that each coil have one built in for ease of maintenance (one less thing to keep an eye on).
    It's an interesting idea and seemed to work. When the hood was popped on the racecar I saw 2x ignition modules mounted in stock location on top of each other with longer mounting bolts, tube like spacers between the modules on all 4x corners. Had the wiring changed to suit.

    Also I think I remember seeing photo's later on of the 2x ignition modules applied to a UK modified Skyline. Seems rare but is used on some Skylines.
    Last edited by Skym; 03-30-2015, 08:17 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • steveo1502
    replied
    Ya there's a few that do coil on plug setup... I have lq9 coils... 40 bucks for coils and wires, made my own harness and bracket, put a relay so it 12 v to the coils .. I have one of those brackets on my 2jz, to run the same coils on the plugs all under the stock cover.... wish I had done the same with my rb but too late now , I already cut notches in the cover for the plug wires

    Leave a comment:


  • R32-90
    replied
    Just get LS coils and throw that german and jap **** in the trash

    The heatsinked ones don't really offer any messurable advantage over anything else, so don't be too picky with truck coils, they all work.

    Go to your nearest junkyard and raid some GM pickups and SUVs, 4.8L and 5.3L bieng most common, got a set of 8 coils with thier harness for 30$ at a local pick and pull. Ive yet to find one that didn't work, and the ones on my gtr came from a 320,000km sierra.

    Only real difference between some LS coils over others is overdwell protection (afaik the heatsinked ones will auto-discharge if charged over 5-6ms, they older truck coils have no overdwell). OEM nissan ecu will run them, Ive been running my setup for years now with 4ms and no issues.

    They are also easy as piss to wire in to any RB, just run a dedicated power for them from your battery if you are worried about your OEM harness. It will be a cold day in hell before I pay someone money for such an easy job.
    Last edited by R32-90; 03-30-2015, 06:23 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • gtrkrauss
    replied
    I have Audi R8 coils that I will be testing in my car myself. They should perform just as well as any LS coil and they are pen style for easier mounting.

    I have had a chance to bench test (visually) the R8 coil vs a stock ls2 coil vs a SplitFire. Lets just say i'm excited to see the results of the R8 coils in my car.

    I work at Volkswagen and these coils can be had for around 30 bucks a piece.


    Good luck

    Leave a comment:


  • Chomper
    replied
    Originally posted by Bruizer View Post
    Many many many many high powered skylines in the world for over 25 years. Stick with what works or face the risks if 800whp capable new stock coils aren't good enough (or even a stock alternator on a 1000hp car) please direct me to your build thread, I'm mega intrigued.

    I'm sure "German ford" r8 coils are cheap but they are cheap like oem and straight fit head ache free.
    I'm not ragging on the performance of the r34 coils, man. Not sure where you got that from. They're just pricey. The point of this thread is to look at other effective options. That's it.

    Originally posted by rvander1992 View Post
    120a alternator is from a nissan quest 99-03 and needs some modifications. it was just posted on the facebook group.

    I used a taylor wire kit custom made. they came in lengths of 3ft or so and I chopped em back to what I needed. Cost 75$ from ebay. So all in all I was 150 into my kit but then sold 6 ls2 coils for 100$.
    I did maintain use of my coilcover however apparently you can also do that with a custom spring and custom brackets. The audi coils are the exact same idea for harness, however coil cover has to go as they're super tall and coil on plug. No special mounting required to my knowledge.
    Yeeeah the Quest... I recall seeing that somewhere awhile back. Thanks man.

    The height of the Audi coils can be reduced using the boots from the 1.8T coils. Whether or not they're still too tall after that, I'm not sure.

    The other day I also came across a thread where they used the stock rb coilpack boots on the ls2 coils to make a coil-on-plug setup using a mounting kit from mojorick in Australia. Not sure if they were able to keep the cover on that one (not that it really makes a huge difference to me -- I can live without the cover lol).
    Last edited by Chomper; 03-30-2015, 06:08 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • rvander1992
    replied
    Originally posted by Chomper View Post
    Thanks for the info skym. I'll have to read up some on that hks ignition module. I believe I've come across a few people who have used this in the past so I'll be hitting them up for info soon.

    Do you have a part number for the 120A alternator? Is it off of another Nissan or a factory upgrade for skylines?
    2x igniters is an interesting idea... Although, I'd prefer that each coil have one built in for ease of maintenance (one less thing to keep an eye on).



    Are you referring to the red tops or the black tops? I know the black tops had a lot of issues and the vw/audi 1.8T guys were experiencing premature coil death due to them overheating... But the red tops were supposed to be the solution and I haven't heard any complaints from a couple buddies that have been running them for 30k and 80k respectively. I know the dealer prices are insane though... The plan was to get them from the states as there are a few tuners there that sell the oem r8 coil packs for 20 bucks a pop. Whether those are the outsourced versions or not is beyond me... I'll have to look into it. Thanks for that! If they are the outsourced version then I'll just scrap the idea and go for the LS2 coils or the r34 coils.



    You get exactly what I'm saying lol. I don't see a point in paying top dollar for an oem replacement when there are more affordable setups out there that match or outperform the rb's oem replacements. I can get the a/c delco coil packs and connectors for fairly cheap here so I'm not too worried about the cost of them. What spark plug wires did you use? I recall that you ran yours around the back to maintain use of the coil pack cover.

    The only reason I'm even considering the R8 coils is because they appear to be cheap, effective, and don't require spark plug wires. If someone can prove that they aren't worth the money then I won't bother with them.
    120a alternator is from a nissan quest 99-03 and needs some modifications. it was just posted on the facebook group.

    I used a taylor wire kit custom made. they came in lengths of 3ft or so and I chopped em back to what I needed. Cost 75$ from ebay. So all in all I was 150 into my kit but then sold 6 ls2 coils for 100$.
    I did maintain use of my coilcover however apparently you can also do that with a custom spring and custom brackets. The audi coils are the exact same idea for harness, however coil cover has to go as they're super tall and coil on plug. No special mounting required to my knowledge.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bruizer
    replied
    Many many many many high powered skylines in the world for over 25 years. Stick with what works or face the risks if 800whp capable new stock coils aren't good enough (or even a stock alternator on a 1000hp car) please direct me to your build thread, I'm mega intrigued.

    I'm sure "German ford" r8 coils are cheap but they are cheap like oem and straight fit head ache free.
    Last edited by Bruizer; 03-30-2015, 05:30 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chomper
    replied
    Originally posted by Skym View Post
    I think the main problem is providing enough voltage to the coils, spark plugs.

    HKS made this device / module (I think I remember seeing this device on their 7.6 sec dragcar engine) -

    https://www.hks-power.co.jp/usa/prod...=840_more.html

    Basically it increases voltage to the coilpacks without drawing alot of current? from the rest of the car (like aircon, lights, fuel pump, etc), essentially doing exactly what the LS, R8 conversion does with providing more voltage to the sparkplugs without the downside of drawing more current? from the rest of the car.

    The factory setup is designed to not draw alot of current? due to lights, aircon, etc that also draws current? (voltage drops to fuel pump, etc), so less stress on alternator and more voltage to fuel pump, etc.

    A way to test this is to turn on aircon, lights, etc and monitor the voltage level and note the drop in voltage.

    I believe you really need to upgrade the alternator at the same time if intend on running aircon, lights, etc with an upgraded ignition system. There is a 120A alternator upgrade which is factory on some Nissan engines in the USA.

    Another trick is to use 2x ignition modules which is rarely seen outside Japan, but have seen it on a R32 RB26 powered racecar outside Japan.
    Thanks for the info skym. I'll have to read up some on that hks ignition module. I believe I've come across a few people who have used this in the past so I'll be hitting them up for info soon.

    Do you have a part number for the 120A alternator? Is it off of another Nissan or a factory upgrade for skylines?
    2x igniters is an interesting idea... Although, I'd prefer that each coil have one built in for ease of maintenance (one less thing to keep an eye on).

    Originally posted by caliber676 View Post
    Having worked at audi I wouldn't use their coils. Far too many recalls, dead coils and warranty replacements for me to even think about running them. They look like junk too in a rb. Also the prices you are looking at for those coils are most likely outsourced "orm" which look identical to the orm ones but on inspection of company and part number are different. The real ones are closer to $80-100 ea. I would say use your money for an r34 coil upgrade. Drop in, swap a connector and expect another 20years of reliability
    Are you referring to the red tops or the black tops? I know the black tops had a lot of issues and the vw/audi 1.8T guys were experiencing premature coil death due to them overheating... But the red tops were supposed to be the solution and I haven't heard any complaints from a couple buddies that have been running them for 30k and 80k respectively. I know the dealer prices are insane though... The plan was to get them from the states as there are a few tuners there that sell the oem r8 coil packs for 20 bucks a pop. Whether those are the outsourced versions or not is beyond me... I'll have to look into it. Thanks for that! If they are the outsourced version then I'll just scrap the idea and go for the LS2 coils or the r34 coils.

    Originally posted by rvander1992 View Post
    I found proper a/c delco ls2 coils in the states for 35$ a piece a year and a half ago when i started looking at this swap. Ofcourse with exchange rate thats gone a bit to ****, but then all thats left is getting pig tails from a wrecking yard and a cheap 6 pin plug you can crimp onto your stock harness and some spools of wire. Thats still less than 250$ which is less than any oem replacement for the rb. Doesn't add much to the conversation but it does prove you can get good quality parts for cheap. If you don't mind stumbling over a few dead coils and still dealing with a 20 year old system I got 16x individual coilpacks(2 vehicles worth) for 70$ from a wrecking yard. That was plenty more than enough to be able to swap out dead ones.
    You get exactly what I'm saying lol. I don't see a point in paying top dollar for an oem replacement when there are more affordable setups out there that match or outperform the rb's oem replacements. I can get the a/c delco coil packs and connectors for fairly cheap here so I'm not too worried about the cost of them. What spark plug wires did you use? I recall that you ran yours around the back to maintain use of the coil pack cover.

    The only reason I'm even considering the R8 coils is because they appear to be cheap, effective, and don't require spark plug wires. If someone can prove that they aren't worth the money then I won't bother with them.

    Leave a comment:


  • rvander1992
    replied
    I found proper a/c delco ls2 coils in the states for 35$ a piece a year and a half ago when i started looking at this swap. Ofcourse with exchange rate thats gone a bit to ****, but then all thats left is getting pig tails from a wrecking yard and a cheap 6 pin plug you can crimp onto your stock harness and some spools of wire. Thats still less than 250$ which is less than any oem replacement for the rb. Doesn't add much to the conversation but it does prove you can get good quality parts for cheap. If you don't mind stumbling over a few dead coils and still dealing with a 20 year old system I got 16x individual coilpacks(2 vehicles worth) for 70$ from a wrecking yard. That was plenty more than enough to be able to swap out dead ones.

    Leave a comment:


  • caliber676
    replied
    Having worked at audi I wouldn't use their coils. Far too many recalls, dead coils and warranty replacements for me to even think about running them. They look like junk too in a rb. Also the prices you are looking at for those coils are most likely outsourced "orm" which look identical to the orm ones but on inspection of company and part number are different. The real ones are closer to $80-100 ea. I would say use your money for an r34 coil upgrade. Drop in, swap a connector and expect another 20years of reliability

    Leave a comment:

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