Bailout

[TM]

Overall stability and soundness of their practices ...

Exactly...

The point is, if your banks are still on the straight and narrow, it keeps the rest of the country in line, to some degree.

Nice find on the article... btw

[Daryl @ RightDrive]

interesting, I didn't know that! The list of banks I was looking at was for amount of holdings, so I guess American and European banks beat us there.
Didn't know the Canadian banks were so stable.

[G.T.R]

I found it hilarious that the workers did not want to take a small pay redction off there already massive salaries to save there own jobs and keep them in house. So thats what its like to watch someone shoot themselves in the foot. These people dont need a large amount of money your a line worker you put in a couple bolts repeatedly for hours on end if they wanted to they could replace you with a machine and be done with it. Frigging waste I was watching CBC and at the ford plant a worker was saying how he needs that minor pay cut to live and such and they need to keep them because of there mechanical abbilitys, even though a ******* child could do what they do.
Steve

[shaz10]

Whatever happened to the FREE MARKET?
Goddam socialism.

The ONLY reason I think the bailout is GOOD is because it's helping overall market performance... which makes me happy since I'm currently down 35% on my equity investments. But if I wasn't in the market I would be against this thing 150%.

But I'm glad to see that the unions ... err... I mean automakers are going to be alright. You give someone who can't manage money to save their lives MORE money... they are just going to piss it away too. So when this $25B is dried up, they will be crying poor again while the short sighted unions are finally realizing that they've totally screwed themselves. They will approach parliament again and this time they will - or at least should - get a big massive F--- you.

I say let them file Chapter 11, break the union, and start putting that $2-3k PER CAR that normally go to union crap back into making a QUALITY product. Oh, and they also need to stop making cars at such a stupid rate... economy of scale only works IF YOU'RE SELLING THE **** YOU'RE MAKING!! It does not work when you're overproducing to bring costs down, only to have your product sit in a yard for 3 years depreciating until you blow it out for a 2% profit margin after the unions take their share.

ECONOMY SUCKS? NON-union companies scale back. Why? Because they can.
ECONOMY SUCKS? Unionized companies are basically FORCED to keep up production... well that bubble can only last for so long. The unions have negotiated themselves out of a job. What's better, having 10,000 people making 20 dollars an hour? Or 5,000 people making 40 dollars an hour?

And yes, I hate unions, I think they had their time... a time when there weren't labour laws and employees actually had to band together to get crap accomplished (ie, safety regulations, overtime pay, etc). However I think now that unions are obsolete mainly due to their short-sightedness and greed.

I liked the picture of the student protesting the Bailout (the big one), he was carrying a sign that said:
"I've got a 4.0GPA, $90,000 in debt, and no job. Where's my bailout?"

I feel it totally reflects how the average tax payer feels. Joe Average is struggling while his portfolio drops 40% and he's losing his retirement savings... while major corporations are playing hungry-hungry hippo with his tax dollars. I support Harper 200% for not pulling the trigger on an economic "stimulus" package before we know if it will even have a positive impact. Why throw good money after bad?

Again, to hell with socialism. You want to get yourself in trouble? Get yourself out. You want all of the benefits of the free market, without the risk? Come on... wake up from your Disney dream world where political angels will save you from your ignorance.

</rant>

EDIT: I made a pic depicting our "free market" because I'm bored of studying:

I couldn't agree with you more. BUT that being said i am a big proponent for the "free market" and to be honest the GTRC classifides and Craigslist are great examples of real free markets. I'm anti bailout as well, think of it this way, why reward bad business? Granted the economic situation is dire and that would have a negative impact, but why prolong the inevitable? If they dont fail now, they'll fail later WITH all of our money.

Think of it this way, the us automakers are like stubborn bratty children, you cant give in everytime they wine, rather you need to let them learn they're lesson. I say let em fail.....deal with the collateral damage (which won't be pretty) and we'll come out the other end stronger than before. Its the natural course of business, i hate government intervention. Peter Schiff of Europacific Capital said it best in this article

http://www.safehaven.com/article-11976.htm

Also search youtube for "Peter Schiff was right", perhaps one of the best video's i've seen in a while. This guy called this disaster years ago and no one believed him.

[Shadao]

i could have called this big-3 disaster years ago... o wait i did

when they all stopped producing affordable reliable small cars and stop producing cars that people actually bought, back around 1998 i knew this situation would occur...

[Neal]

LOL we still on this? not sure if i mentioned my option...

I say let them tank and the US Govt start a "VW" of thier own with cheap capital bought from the bankrupt big 3. (for those who may not know VW was a german government created company to create cars for teh avg person).

Look you can hit the ground runnin. you got skilled labour, supply channels and distribution channels already in place. You will eliminate all the debt and the obscene union obligations, and you condsilidate all these needless brands into 1.

focus on building a cheap K Car to start off with, and when profitable turn it over privately... done... everyone is happy... people have jobs tax payers get there money back and the "american" auto industry survives...

why did i put "american" in quotations..... seperate story... like what is an "american" company? with global stock markets and global production imo there are no "national" corporations. i.e if the US people all bought the majority of toyota shares tomorrow through private shares or various mutual/pension funds (none of them holding any significant amount individually) is toyota still jap? or is it now american? people need to be looking at the bigger picture...

[Skym]

Interesting discussion.

The bailout happened -

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world_business/view/397581/1/.html

But supposedly the top executives keep their bonuses. Something about keeping good staff??? That's what they were saying on the TV news from US.

Also something about investors getting no dividends until they pay the loan or part of it back.

[boost-god]

I found it hilarious that the workers did not want to take a small pay redction off there already massive salaries to save there own jobs and keep them in house. So thats what its like to watch someone shoot themselves in the foot. These people dont need a large amount of money your a line worker you put in a couple bolts repeatedly for hours on end if they wanted to they could replace you with a machine and be done with it. Frigging waste I was watching CBC and at the ford plant a worker was saying how he needs that minor pay cut to live and such and they need to keep them because of there mechanical abbilitys, even though a ******* child could do what they do.
Steve

1st: they didnt want to get a pay reduction cause they know the goverment will fix it in the end, and you watch, they will. they wont let the big 3 go down, and i bet anyhing.

2nd: i know from good source (employee at the oshawa plant) that they make over 65$ an hour.

3rd: trust me, they all think they are mechanics, thats why many mechanics ive met over the years would never consider working for a gm dealer near oshawa, ontario. believe me, they come in and tell you that a guy in the "whatever" department told them how you should fix the problem and the diagnosis should be this and that, oh my god i get aggrivated only by thinking about it, im losing my words.....
DAMN...i got to go have a smoke

[boost-god]

the big three going away is not that simple.
a lot of things will go down with them. think for example of the parts suppliers for the plants,assembly line , maybe you dont know , but a lot of suppliers for honda , toyota etc , are the same ones for the big three.
now when these suppliers lose their biggest customer (the big 3), they will not be able to stay alive, (think of something like 50% loss in bussines).
that will cause the jap manufacturers to find someone else to make parts for them, and that could take time , and for those parts to be of good quality will take even more time. but that is just one of the problems that we will have to face.
there are millions of "american" cars on the road , that will get their warranty eliminated and parts will become obsolete, cause the companies will not be making parts anymore ,(obvious if they bankrupt), and the aftermarket suppliers would be crazy to keep making parts for a non existant company. they eventually have to stop stocking parts, which will %&*@$# anybody with a ford gm or chrysler.
anyways, these are just examples, i cannot explain it properly but if you talk with people that know you will see the the 3 are here to stay, they have to, even if i would never buy an american car unless its a muscle car, and i used to work for them!!!!!

[JD74]

If the UAW won't change, then they (Big 3) should just 'restructure'.....

Lay everyone off, close the plants, re-fit with new equipment, go more automated (like in some 'Off-shore' plants) then start back up and force everyone to re-qualify for their old jobs (if they, the old jobs even exist still) and call it a day.

During this period, Exec salaries and Benefits should also be re-evaluated by the 'Board' as a whole and start from scratch.

It's not like they are completely broke and have nothing. They can easilly bail themselves out if they are willing to get their hands dirty.

It's only the people NOW that are making the equivilant of $75+/hour w/Benefits and Execs that are making 6 and 7 digit salaries w/Benefits that have a problem.

I am certain that once everyone is forced out of work (and are forced into a little self-reflection), they (Big 3) will have no problem finding a labour force to start @ $25/hour + regular benefits to fill the positions and Execs that are willing to work for UNDER $1,000,000/year.

Let's face it, working in an Auto Plant is commonly seen (by the rest of the world) as a 'Dog F#ckers' job anyways.....they are all paid quite well for the little work they actually do in the new age of automation that we live in.

[Turismo]

just got this through an email, its a bit long but

YOU MUST READ THIS

i agree 100% with the following;

This is one of the greatest responses to the requests for bailout money I have seen thus far. As a supplier for the Big 3 this man received a letter from the President of GM North America requesting support for the bail out program. His response is classic, and has to make you proud of a local guy who tells it like it is. He and "Joe the Plumber" would make a great team.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++
Dear Employees & Suppliers,
Congress and the current Administration will soon determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history. Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis. ... As an employee or supplier, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard.
Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.
Troy Clarke
President General Motors North America

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Response from:

Gregory Knox, Pres.
Knox Machinery Company
Franklin, Ohio

Gentlemen:

In response to your request to contact legislators and ask for a bailout for the Big Three automakers please consider the following, and please pass my thoughts on to Troy Clark, President of General Motors North America.

Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping this nation, awaiting our new "messiah", Pres-elect Obama, to wave his magic wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream"… Believe me folks, The dream is over!

This dream where we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the world’s most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities … this dream where you still think the masses will line up to buy our products for ever and ever.

Don't even think about telling me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak. I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey-Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's throughout the Midwest during the past 30 years and what I've seen over those years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.

Troy Clarke, President of General Motors North America, states: "There is widespread sentiment throughout this country, and our government, and especially via the news media, that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management which it certainly is not."

You're right Mr. Clarke, it's not JUST management … how about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass … so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time … for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40-hour work week. How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics … for putting out too many parts on a shift … and for being too productive

(We certainly must not expose those lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?)

Do you folks really not know about this stuff?!? How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea: "over the last few years … we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors." What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!? Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them? The K car vs. the Accord? The Pinto vs. the Civic?!? Do I need to go on? What a joke!

We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States’ auto industry for decades. It's time to pay for your sins, Detroit.

I attended an economic summit last week where brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu, from the Institute of Trend Research, surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money". "Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems," but despite what people like politicians and corporate magnates would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day … and the following very important thing would happen …where there had been greedy and sloppy banks, new efficient ones would pop up …that is how a free market system works … it does work … if we would only let it work…"

But for some nondescript reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work - that we need the government to step in and "save us"… Save us my ass, Hell - we're nationalizing…and unfortunately too many of our once fine nation's citizens don't even have a clue that this is what is really happening … BUT, they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams … yeah - THAT'S really important, isn't it…

Does it ever occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades in this country? ... How can that be??? Let's see … Fuel efficient … Listening to customers … Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul…

Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr. W. Edwards Deming four decades ago when he taught that by adopting appropriate principles of management, organizations could increase quality and simultaneously reduce costs. Ever increased productivity through quality and intelligent planning… Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy"… Efficient front and back offices … Non union environment…

Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know down deep in their hearts.

I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into - my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did when I was their age. I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) - I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work through it. Radical concept, huh… Am I there for them in the wings? Of course - but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults.

I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government. Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins. Bad news, people - it's coming whether we like it or not. The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away." I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the final vote count was tallied…" We really might not do it in a year … or in four…" Where the Hell was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office.

Stop trying to put off the inevitable folks … That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000… People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits … That job driving that forklift for the Big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year … We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe…

That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home … Let the market correct itself folks - it will. Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna' be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it all, is a nation that appreciates what it has … and doesn't live beyond its means … and gets back to basics … and redevelops the patriotic work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world … and probably turns back to God.

Sorry - don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the "bad news". I hope you take it to heart.

Gregory J. Knox, President
Knox Machinery, Inc.
Franklin, Ohio 45005

[JD74]

....THAT, was beautiful.

[FormerVDubber]

It really is unfortunate how Unions have become. I once knew someone that worked for a union like this. He was threatened by his union and co-workers for being too good at his job. I truly believe unions no longer are neccesary with current laws protecting the work force.

[falcon]

and you can look at it too, that if there were NO unions... the Labour board would put more effort to un-unionized workers. not that it's bad now, but if they didn't have to deal with the unions all the time then overall labour codes and all around work force would become better protected. it would be a win-win.

[Turismo]

I'm in a union, one of the largest in the world as far as i know, IBEW. Some are good, some are bad. You'll always have the leechers that suck out as much money for the least amount of work. Problem is that when in a union it's easier, You are much less accountable for your actions. You kinda know you can get away with a lot more then you should.

also was everyone else aware that the canadian government gave 4.x billion to the big 3 canadian counterparts.