Arleigh's Motor

[333]

opinions/theories as to why his motor blew up. Full build list on gtr project thread.

[JD74]

This is a guess (based on what I know of the build).......

I bet the Fuel system and Boost level played a partial role, along with the tune as a result.

JDMTYPES was running a single in-tank pump (Tomei 276 LPH, Tomei rates it @ 560PS, or 580HP......at the crank....maybe 500HP at the wheels ? ) and a Fuel Pressure Regulator that is commonly used for (and should have been rated for) 450PS (at the wheels?) builds and under, or perhaps lower line pressures (Tomei Type C, AN6).

1.7 BAR of Boost = approx 26 PSI Boost
1.9 BAR of Boost = approx 28 PSI Boost

Overall, we are looking at approx 70 PSI +/- 1 PSI overall line pressure (remember, 43 PSI base pressure + boost Pressure) here as well ....and is quite easy to begin pointing fingers at the Fuel System that was feeding the motor while it produced nearly 600 Wheel HP. I have a hard time believing that the Tomei Type C FPR was able to control fuel pressure at 70 PSI line pressure properly with it's tiny little diaphram.

I would like to see the Wideband log/Fuel curve from the Dyno runs.......

I would also like to know which direction the ring land has broken in.......


Here is Info taken DIRECTLY from Tomei's Website:

Tomei 276 LPH BNR32 In-Tank Fuel Pump (Tomei part# 17042R585)
---------------------------------

http://www.tomei-p.co.jp/_2003web-catalogue/e136_fuelpump.html

---------------------------------
RATING: 590PS/580HP (crank) on paper.

Tomei specific rating RB26/GTR:
---------------------------------
@12.5V, 1.5kg/cm2 Boost level (1.47 BAR/21 PSI Boost/64 PSI Line) = 245LPH in RB26 @ 90%



Could you even imagine what volume the pump was making @ 1.7 BAR (28 PSI Boost/71 PSI line) if, by 1.5 BAR it already falls to UNDER 245 LPH ? Well, actually, somewhere in the 200-210 LPH range which is barely enough fuel to max out a set of 600cc injectors according to the Stealth316 Fuel Guide and the fall-off of Denso pumps at 13.5V and 71 PSI line pressure.

There is NO WAY the Fuel system was up to the task of supporting 600 HP AT THE WHEELS (with a pump rating of only 580 HP at the CRANK according to it's manufacturer).

I think it should have been the responsibility of the tuner to realize this.

I am surprised that the car didn't blow up on the Dyno.

[JNS Performance]

Thats alot of boost for that fuel setup.

Whats with the dip in his power curve?

[LIGHTSPD]

This is a guess (based on what I know of the build).......

I bet the Fuel system and Boost level played a partial role, along with the tune as a result.

JDMTYPES was running a single in-tank pump (Tomei 276 LPH, Tomei rates it @ 560PS, or 580HP......at the crank....maybe 500HP at the wheels ? ) and a Fuel Pressure Regulator that is commonly used for (and should have been rated for) 450PS (at the wheels?) builds and under, or perhaps lower line pressures (Tomei Type C, AN6).

1.7 BAR of Boost = approx 26 PSI Boost
1.9 BAR of Boost = approx 28 PSI Boost

Overall, we are looking at approx 70 PSI +/- 1 PSI overall line pressure (remember, 43 PSI base pressure + boost Pressure) here as well ....and is quite easy to begin pointing fingers at the Fuel System that was feeding the motor while it produced nearly 600 Wheel HP. I have a hard time believing that the Tomei Type C FPR was able to control fuel pressure at 70 PSI line pressure properly with it's tiny little diaphram.

I would like to see the Wideband log/Fuel curve from the Dyno runs.......

I would also like to know which direction the ring land has broken in.......


Here is Info taken DIRECTLY from Tomei's Website:

Tomei 276 LPH BNR32 In-Tank Fuel Pump (Tomei part# 17042R585)
---------------------------------

http://www.tomei-p.co.jp/_2003web-catalogue/e136_fuelpump.html

---------------------------------
RATING: 590PS/580HP (crank) on paper.

Tomei specific rating RB26/GTR:
---------------------------------
@12.5V, 1.5kg/cm2 Boost level (1.47 BAR/21 PSI Boost/64 PSI Line) = 245LPH in RB26 @ 90%



Could you even imagine what volume the pump was making @ 1.7 BAR (28 PSI Boost/71 PSI line) if, by 1.5 BAR it already falls to UNDER 245 LPH ? Well, actually, somewhere in the 200-210 LPH range which is barely enough fuel to max out a set of 600cc injectors according to the Stealth316 Fuel Guide and the fall-off of Denso pumps at 13.5V and 71 PSI line pressure.

There is NO WAY the Fuel system was up to the task of supporting 600 HP AT THE WHEELS (with a pump rating of only 580 HP at the CRANK according to it's manufacturer).

I think it should have been the responsibility of the tuner to realize this.

I am surprised that the car didn't blow up on the Dyno.

Well what a surprise a tuner gets blamed.

I am glad Nersan was watching over my shoulder as he was very nervous about this entire process. So I am going to lay down some facts not guesses. Everything that happened was watched very carefully and went very slow.

1. I had a concern about a noise I heard in the engine before we even started it was brought to the attention of Nersan and Anthony we listened very closely and couldn't identify. It was definately in the bottom. We all agreed that it was safe to procede and we did carefully.

2. The entire time the engine was being tuned electronic detonation monitoring was going on and there was no det period.

3. Nersan sat and watched over my shoulder as he was paranoid over the whole process he will tell you this car at wot under boost was in the 10.9-10.7 AFR richer than I was even commanding the fuel to be. I kept telling them running thi much boost was insane and the final dyno runs have this car down at 23-24.7 . The timing was so conservative the engine was breaking up at first. More had to be added to deal with turbo shuffle and the flame front actually being extinguished. After we were done tuning I looked at Nersan and said I understand you want big numbers but arleigh does not need them on a daily basis so lets take a little timing out and drop the boost some more.

4. Blame the tuner first thing everyone does for not knowing absoutely everything about every possible combination. If I ask the owner if this is built for this kind of expected horsepower and they tell me they have upgraded the fuel pump and it is a Tomei that sounds good to me. It is good to speculate that part a would fail under these circumstances but once again this is a guess not backed up by fact. The onething is I donot have time to spend every waking hour looking into every possible combination on the internet then have a multi thousand post count and claim i am an expert. Most experts have hundreds of successful builds under their belt and can baclk up proclaimed knowledge by fact. So if you are not an expert quick guessing. Stick to the facts they are above. One other thing and Nersan will back it up I told him as well that this car was out of fuel and could not sustain the power they wanted. I did my job.

5. not only I but Nersan and Anthony drove this car hard and there was no det.

6. At that power level what happens if you geta bad tank of fuel.

7. This final point is dirrected at JD74. I am feeling very attacked by you with merely guesses and claims of wanting to be involved to the point of phoning Nersan. So lets examine some more facts. If the people involved want to talk to me they will ask for any logs etc as it is their business not yours. If you really wanted to know some of the more intricate details you could have phoned and asked I feel we have that kind of relationship. I feel your above post is quite ethuggish. So I am leaving this post on this level I have many cars out there running 500whp reliably examine the above ask yourself before you blame the tuner "how did I handle that situation on the last big horepower car I tuned" if you did something different nd what I did was in error please tell me.

So to sum it up the owner was told more fuel delivery was needed. The car is being pushed to the ragged edge and well things break there as well maybe it is possible that some bad fuel was also put in.Maybe an already strained fuel system lost some of its performance. Those rating on that pump you gave is what it is rated at for its entire life so maybe it was functioning better for the first bit of its life as well. Maybe that noise was more of probem than the three of us plus 2 techs thought. Maybe maybe Maybe maybe there was a boost spike after it left maybe there was something else that failed or lets take #1 internet choice it must have been the tuner.

This whole thing is full of maybe. Lets stick to facts the car has a broken ring land when it was tuned the timing was so conservative it was flaming out. It was runnning sub 11's afr. The rest is as you said a guess.

Call me we can sort this out on the phone and not the internet Allan.

[LIGHTSPD]

Thats alot of boost for that fuel setup.

Whats with the dip in his power curve?

Turbo Shuffle that could not be tuned out

[mcfly]

Well what a surprise a tuner gets blamed.

I am glad Nersan was watching over my shoulder as he was very nervous about this entire process. So I am going to lay down some facts not guesses. Everything that happened was watched very carefully and went very slow.

1. I had a concern about a noise I heard in the engine before we even started it was brought to the attention of Nersan and Anthony we listened very closely and couldn't identify. It was definately in the bottom. We all agreed that it was safe to procede and we did carefully.

2. The entire time the engine was being tuned electronic detonation monitoring was going on and there was no det period.

3. Nersan sat and watched over my shoulder as he was paranoid over the whole process he will tell you this car at wot under boost was in the 10.9-10.7 AFR richer than I was even commanding the fuel to be. I kept telling them running thi much boost was insane and the final dyno runs have this car down at 23-24.7 . The timing was so conservative the engine was breaking up at first. More had to be added to deal with turbo shuffle and the flame front actually being extinguished. After we were done tuning I looked at Nersan and said I understand you want big numbers but arleigh does not need them on a daily basis so lets take a little timing out and drop the boost some more.

4. Blame the tuner first thing everyone does for not knowing absoutely everything about every possible combination. If I ask the owner if this is built for this kind of expected horsepower and they tell me they have upgraded the fuel pump and it is a Tomei that sounds good to me. It is good to speculate that part a would fail under these circumstances but once again this is a guess not backed up by fact. The onething is I donot have time to spend every waking hour looking into every possible combination on the internet then have a multi thousand post count and claim i am an expert. Most experts have hundreds of successful builds under their belt and can baclk up proclaimed knowledge by fact. So if you are not an expert quick guessing. Stick to the facts they are above. One other thing and Nersan will back it up I told him as well that this car was out of fuel and could not sustain the power they wanted. I did my job.

5. not only I but Nersan and Anthony drove this car hard and there was no det.

6. At that power level what happens if you geta bad tank of fuel.

7. This final point is dirrected at JD74. I am feeling very attacked by you with merely guesses and claims of wanting to be involved to the point of phoning Nersan. So lets examine some more facts. If the people involved want to talk to me they will ask for any logs etc as it is their business not yours. If you really wanted to know some of the more intricate details you could have phoned and asked I feel we have that kind of relationship. I feel your above post is quite ethuggish. So I am leaving this post on this level I have many cars out there running 500whp reliably examine the above ask yourself before you blame the tuner "how did I handle that situation on the last big horepower car I tuned" if you did something different nd what I did was in error please tell me.

So to sum it up the owner was told more fuel delivery was needed. The car is being pushed to the ragged edge and well things break there as well maybe it is possible that some bad fuel was also put in.Maybe an already strained fuel system lost some of its performance. Those rating on that pump you gave is what it is rated at for its entire life so maybe it was functioning better for the first bit of its life as well. Maybe that noise was more of probem than the three of us plus 2 techs thought. Maybe maybe Maybe maybe there was a boost spike after it left maybe there was something else that failed or lets take #1 internet choice it must have been the tuner.

This whole thing is full of maybe. Lets stick to facts the car has a broken ring land when it was tuned the timing was so conservative it was flaming out. It was runnning sub 11's afr. The rest is as you said a guess.

Call me we can sort this out on the phone and not the internet Allan.

So you guys continued to tune an engine to 600 whp....with a noise? That's like picking up a needle on the street and thinking, oh "hey I wont get aids this time".
Didn't you guys blow up a built ej with a 35r on the dyno also?

You seem to have a lot of assumptions and "shoulds" in this story.

[JD74]

Cam, don't get me wrong......I left the 'tune' reference for LAST in my list of BOOST + FUEL......resulting in TUNE (if you re-read what I wrote above and the time of the last edit).

Everything you posted in terms of WARNINGS was exactly what I told Nersan on the phone, so oddly enough, it seems that it is infact YOU AND I that are/were on the same page in regards to the 'ragged edge' and I commend you for that.

It seems that I was led to believe that the vehicle was delivered to be tuned with less than explicit instructions in regards to desired boost and power levels and everything was left in your hands for judgement, when in fact, it seems that is NOT the case and you were supervised more or less with ongoing instruction and a total disregard for your advice, based on what you posted above that hasn't been disagreed with by any other parties - so therein lies the answer.

You already knew the limits of the build and offered (from what I can read) on MORE THAN 1 OCCASION, words of advise to the contrary of what was ACTUALLY desired - SO IN SHORT - YOU DID YOUR JOB

If nothing in terms of statements made is contested - Case Closed

Allan

[LIGHTSPD]

Yep totally had a bottom end failure on that 35 car it lost the oil pump funny you bring that up as it has alot to do with arleigh's motor. Once again the owner knew what happed and is right beside me as we read this thread. Also lost a different Subaru on the road 3rd pull at 14PSI when it dropped sleeve. Been a couple of others too.While we are digging up dirt on me i got caught cheating on my math exam in grade 5 as well I lied to my teacher in grade 8 about who broke the windows. I once kicked a puppy I am sure there is more. That what happens when you push cars to the limits they break because things go wrong it happens. It will continue to happen. I have logged more than 9000 hours of dyno tuning and things go wrong it happens if it didn't happen I would be lieing to you.. When you listen with the equipment we listen with you here all kinds of things you don't normally here some are normal some abnormal if I here things that I don't think are normal we quit evaluate the situation sometimes we retire sometiimes we go on from there. You sitting on the end of a computer can not evaluate what we did you were not there . I am through as this is turning into a war and has missed the point completely any other information you can get from Nersan.

[LIGHTSPD]

Cam, don't get me wrong......I left the 'tune' reference for LAST in my list of BOOST + FUEL......resulting in TUNE (if you re-read what I wrote above and the time of the last edit).

Everything you posted in terms of WARNINGS was exactly what I told Nersan on the phone, so oddly enough, it seems that it is infact YOU AND I that are/were on the same page in regards to the 'ragged edge' and I commend you for that.

It seems that I was led to believe that the vehicle was delivered to be tuned with less than explicit instructions in regards to desired boost and power levels and everything was left in your hands for judgement, when in fact, it seems that is NOT the case and you were supervised more or less with ongoing instruction and a total disregard for your advice, based on what you posted above that hasn't been disagreed with by any other parties - so therein lies the answer.

You already knew the limits of the build and offered (from what I can read) on MORE THAN 1 OCCASION, words of advise to the contrary of what was ACTUALLY desired - SO IN SHORT - YOU DID YOUR JOB

If nothing in terms of statements made is contested - Case Closed

Allan

Thankyou Allan thats all I am trying to say.

[NismoS-tune]

Am I missing something here, who is blaming the tuner and the problem with the boost controller was the stepping motor was not working. Frank, a word of advice, Cam hates those boost controllers with a passion, at one point I thought he was going to pop a vessel. His advice is to go with a manual controller, set it for whatever boost and leave it. Let your foot do the limiting.

Nershan, I had planned on going with the HKS boost controller ( http://www.tunerlab.jp/hks-evc-p-989...2bffa150c21a6d ) simply because it's one of the most reliable ones and has many features. Since My internals are stock, I'm not planning on going over .8bar but most likely 1bar will keep me under 410whp. I'm not looking to rebuild a 20 year old engine because I put too much power through it through it. Unlike a supra, RB26s aren't exactly that good with stock internals. I plan to have overboost protection at for anything over 1bar or .8bar if my desired "stock engine safe limit" is reached. * To prevent accidental data changes from occurring, the EVC can be locked with a user defined four digit code.
The manual boost controller idea was brought up by Anthony a while ago but I had not thought about going that way at the time. I'm not looking to "scramble boost my car into a rebuild" so the boost won't be changed from tuning, garanteed. My main concern is that the tuning shop is far from home so I need to get it home. The vipec should be able to adapt to the change in air quality as I head home. I recall how much the AFRs had gone up on Anthony's car last year when he got back.

Since I'm not an all-knowing car guy, Anthony and Cam are 2 people I trust with my car. Anthony knows/will know what parts are going on the car and Cam will know everything he needs to know to tune it. On a 20 year old Rb26 with compression tests of 156-160 on all cylinders, who knows.

I'm hoping to have it tuned this coming friday, the 28th or earlier if I can get everything completed before then.

[jdmtypes]

Eveyone has their opinion on why my motor popped. I dont blame anyone for the failure end of story. If anything I hope others learn from this so it doesnt happen to them.

I'll tear apart the motor an see where it all went wrong an rebuild it not to fail again.


IT'S OLD NEWS

[NismoS-tune]

Are you planning on using the same builder and machine shop again?

[CanadianGTR]

Why someone OTHER than the person who owned the car started this thread is well beyond my comprehension.

Enough pot stirring, if the owner has a problem I'm sure he is fully capable of making it known all on his own.

Thread closed.

[got_boost!]

I hope the fact that he kicked a puppy has something to do with the lock as well