Lug nuts - serious buziness :)

[Stardust]

edited by S

[gtrkrauss]

Work or Volk lug nuts. that is all

[caliber676]

I use rays. I liked the wheel lock design looking pretty Much like the rest of the lugs.

[MarusGTR]

Anyone run Mutekis? I'm not sure if they'd be better than my Gorillas which need constant torquing at the track.

PS: From an engineering standpoint, I would run OEM to only lightly harder alloy for OEM studs. You want the nut threads do to the work and fatigue, not the other way around.

[frankiman]

simply, the best

[MarusGTR]

So, I gather your job at TWM is going well? :P

[frankiman]

So, I gather your job at TWM is going well? :P

yup, spent about 50 hours designing and testing these beauties, pretty much reinvented the nut...
they are going to be officially unveilled this week, we still need to confirm the options we'll be giving

for sure i'm running these on my GTR as soon as the first batch comes in, they are going to be great for the track

[frankiman]

Sorry, I didn't get this. Are you saying that to use aftermarket nuts you need to replace the oem studs first? What do you mean you want nut threads to work and fatigue? You realize what happens if the nut thread gives up due to fatigue - your wheels will fall off. But again, may be I misunderstood. I am sparky, lol We don't speak "mechanical eng" language, haha

well basically, you should always use the strongest nuts & stud possible
stronger studs don't really exist so by using better nuts, its safer

studs and nuts aren't designed to fail, like a shear pin, they should hold as much force as possible

if you upgrade your nuts, then the stud becomes the weak link, but the threashold is still higher than if you were using a normal nut

so, if you'd have a stud/nut combo that could hold 10x times the force of the standard units, it would be best, there is no downside!
you DON'T want your stud/nuts to fail, anytime anywhere !

[GTRPower]

Factory rims use a radius seat in many cases. Most aftermarket rims use a tapered seat. Also, different auto manufacturers use different radii for their wheel lugs. Check your rim/lug nut/bolt compatibility before using.

[frankiman]

when you say - better nuts - what do you mean by "better"? If we compare hardened steel aftermarket nut to ordinary factory steel nut - how do we know that aftermarket is "better" and not just a gimmick?
Also, could you please comment on the following statement (source: Rays engineering) - lug nuts are made with tapered bottoms and are not recommended for use on the factory rims." Why?

titanium and aluminum have roughly the same galling issues, anti-seize or multi-use grease should always be used with both materials

if you buy 6061 aluminum nuts (duralumin, by rays) know that it is the weakest material used to make nuts
and in any case, aluminum is a poor material to use in fatigue situations
and if you tend to remove your wheels often (like i do, because i do alot of track) then the threads of aluminum nuts will wear out at light speed, i usually spend no more than 2 season with the same set

OE manufacturers use standard carbon steel, which is strong but heavy,
if you want to upgrade with steel, the only way to go is with a steel alloy like Chromoly, its the same weight as any other steel, but over twice as strong, so the nut can be made smaller-lighter

the advantage of Titanium, is that its even stronger than chromoly, and half the weight, also, it does not rust, at all, and it is extremely wear resistant

aftermarket nuts should mostly be used with aftermarket wheels, because the 60deg taper is standardized across all A/M manufacturer, but not with OE wheels
thats why they put a disclamer, so you don't return them if they don't fit your OE wheels



also, hardened steel is simply a standard carbon steel that is heat treater for a harder surface, for better wear resistance, but its not actually stronger

[caliber676]

On stock rims or on the aftermarket? Do you track your car? Do you use regular or extended nuts? Open or closed end? Need more info please

Sorry, I'm running SSR wheels. And the car hasn't felt the ground in two years so I couldn't comment on its use, just a couple spirited driving days before I took the car off the road. As it goes for most things, if you buy a good quality brand like works rays volk etc I wouldn't worry. These have been r&d buy top companies and are used many track vehicles.

In my 3 years of working on audis I have never seen a bolt aftermarket or oem break, nor a stud fail when properly torqued by an accurate wrench and in the correct pattern. The only time I've ever seen wheels fall off or nuts/studs fail are from apparent cross threading, no torquing whatsoever, this includes countless rs models and r8's which many run aftermarket wheels.

If you stick to the correct seat pattern for your wheels, proper torque with a torque wrench, not a stick (too tight is also bad), in the correct star sequence you won have a problem. Retorque the wheels after a full drive cycle if your anal and obviously before hard driving for peace of mind.

^ as for frankiman, I would never use any sort of paste or grease on a wheel fastener whatsoever, this is in regards to torquing numbers with and without lubrication. This is a rule taught from ITA government programs, and I stick by it. Everyone has there own methods but personally I have to stick with what is considered proper practice by trades authorities. In the event a customers wheel comes off and they are injured I would be considered liable for malpractice.

[frankiman]

yup, they're the same, both 60deg taper
most oem wheels have that taper, but some don't

[frankiman]

^ as for frankiman, I would never use any sort of paste or grease on a wheel fastener whatsoever, this is in regards to torquing numbers with and without lubrication. This is a rule taught from ITA government programs, and I stick by it. Everyone has there own methods but personally I have to stick with what is considered proper practice by trades authorities. In the event a customers wheel comes off and they are injured I would be considered liable for malpractice.

well from what i learned in my "lubes" class, you should always employ anti-seize in application where materials can cause binding or galling (with aluminum and stainless) and in high temperature situations for the same reason

it won't make the parts unscrew by themselves, it will simply keep them from "cold welding"

i always use grease on all the bolts on my car when putting them back together, wheel nuts too, haven't lost a nut at the track yet

and i've always used anti-seize on the brake calipers bolts, they are always tight, but super easy to take off

[caliber676]

^ i agree with them not coming apart, I'm sure there is next to no risk of using lube. Just trying to show another side of the paper. In "proper practice" your supposed to stay away from using anti seize/lubricants in certain places.

For the duraluminum lugs they do tend to bind a bit, but I see enough bolting and unbolting keep it down to a minimum.

I think a lot of people see videos like the rx7's wheels falling off and think it is a common thing that needs serious thought. I'd say its almost always human error for those types of failure, and of course if your running $10 lugs from ebay I'd still place that under the human error category

[frankiman]

^ i agree with them not coming apart, I'm sure there is next to no risk of using lube. Just trying to show another side of the paper. In "proper practice" your supposed to stay away from using anti seize/lubricants in certain places.

For the duraluminum lugs they do tend to bind a bit, but I see enough bolting and unbolting keep it down to a minimum.

I think a lot of people see videos like the rx7's wheels falling off and think it is a common thing that needs serious thought. I'd say its almost always human error for those types of failure, and of course if your running $10 lugs from ebay I'd still place that under the human error category

yeah i remember that exact video, from what i found out, the guy just put his track wheels on with another set of nut, which weren't the right thread (1,25 vs 1,5) but impact-ted them on, of course tearing out all the threads.... what a joke that guy