Any coilover for 1100$ used or new.

[GTR-Dad]

High end tien is junk.

Hold that thought....

GTR-Dad, if everyone had a shock dyno in their garage I'm sure they'd love to provide you with charts.

Since NOBODY here does, I think that's a rather unreasonable expectation. Maybe if I was in the business of selling shocks I'd have a dyno. But I don't have millions to dump on testing hardware to determine which $2000 suspension parts work best.

Your comment about if you were in the biz hits the nail on the head. My complaint is not that enthusiasts who discuss dampers don't perform testing, but that precious few manufacturers are willing to publish data.

A good shock dyno is only about $5k though.

Props to Skym for posting up links to some real data! Discussing interpretation of actual measurements will make for much better damper selection than random blabbing.

I agree that everyone should back up their opinions with facts, and everyone's definition of crap is different.

O'rly.
:wink:
Dan

[GTR-Dad]

From what I understand, some coilovers are multitube. Monotube is supposedly better due to bigger valving, resistance to foaming, overheating, fading under constant hard use.

Here's thread on Honda forum with Bilstein (I think the Sport valving) Vs Koni shocks with shock dyno charts -

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?p=38462994

Cool data! I'd love to see the dyno charts with the time dimension included so we could see how much damping changes when you work them hard.

Monotube dampers of the same diameter as twin tube will contain more oil and can dissipate heat faster so they're more consistent.

Sorry, I added it to wrong paragraph, was a bit tired when I typed the post.

Originally Posted by Skym
I guess the 2x MAPS make sense why MAP setup takes longer to setup (more cells to tune). Although it could work like a main, knock map, where it switches between the 2 maps and IAT sensor is in place of a knock sensor.

That makes more sense. A poor way to control an engine as it leaves a ton of adjustment range on the table so the engine would never really be receiving the correct fuel OR ignition advance for the real load.

As far as I know it does. Download the tuning software from Link website and have a look at maps, etc -

http://www.linkecu.com/support/downl...clink-download

Thanks for the background!

The other part of what I'd love to see everyone (not just Skym) doing is to avoid making blanket statements when the knowledge and experience behind the statement do not fully support it.

If you're aware of a MAP-based ECU that doesn't compensate continuously for temperature changes, that doesn't mean ALL speed density systems have this deficiency. (For example.)

Providing a basis for your technical input enables others to evaluate the context of the information and verify its reliability. As more and more people who keep this in mind, GTRC will become a better and better place to get technical information.

Anyhow, I've had a good sleep and I feel much better!

Dan

[Terrh]

I didn't realize shock dynos were so cheap. You'd think more people would have them in service then, and the data would be out there.

[GTR-Dad]

I didn't realize shock dynos were so cheap. You'd think more people would have them in service then, and the data would be out there.

I think it'd embarrass a lot of manufacturers. Upon reflection, I realize incorrect interpretation of data is just about as bad as no data at all because you _think_ you know, but you don't even...

For interest's sake -

http://www.shockdyno.com/

http://www.circletrack.com/howto/82884_buildling_shock_dyno/index.html

http://www.accuforceshockdyno.com/Info/Info.html

Dan

[Skym]

Cool data! I'd love to see the dyno charts with the time dimension included so we could see how much damping changes when you work them hard.

More Bilstein shock dyno data, etc here -

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/shock_absorber_shock_dyno/index.html

Monotube dampers of the same diameter as twin tube will contain more oil and can dissipate heat faster so they're more consistent.

Also Monotube supposedly uses air running past shock body to cool the oil inside.

That makes more sense. A poor way to control an engine as it leaves a ton of adjustment range on the table so the engine would never really be receiving the correct fuel OR ignition advance for the real load.

I noticed Link have a booth (looks like a container in the photo they had), where they can adjust temperatures to freezing to test their ECU's ability's in colder climates. Not many ECU tuners would have access to a booth which allows you to drop temps to near freezing to tune the main maps and warm room up to adjust intake airtemp correction maps.

Thanks for the background!

You're welcome.

Anyhow, I've had a good sleep and I feel much better!

It's good to hear you are feeling ok.

[Terrh]

I think that a lot of people would be happier with their (street) car 99% of the time with a good set of bilsteins/etc and reasonable spring rates than an all out coilover.

Is it really worth the sacrifice for the 1% (or less) of track time that most cars see?

[Skym]

Bilstein is good on road, racetrack. Good suspension setup should provide quick laptimes.

At SuperLap NZ a fairly stock Supra with stock Bilsteins, King spring upgrade was second fastest. There was an EVO 8 that was faster (1:14) and I think it had adjustable PSS9 Bilsteins, King springs, more hp. Both cars had the same driver. But the EVO 8 can have the owner driving and is nearly as quick.

Here's the lap times for Supra -

http://www.performancecar.co.nz/events/super-lap/2008-taupo-results/super-lap-2008-at-taupo-results

TV article on EVO, Supra -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23z32MPsOCk

Magazine article with EVO 8 is on this website -

http://www.performancecar.co.nz/articles/seeing-red-2003-mitsubishi-evolution-viii-gsr-127?page=1

It would have been amazing to see a nearly stock Supra win SuperLap.

I can see why Nissan fitted Bilstein's to stock R35GTR that set the production car lap record at Nurburgring.

[Andrewc]

You have to remember the lighter the car, the less strain on suspension. Also, a heavy spring rate isn't required once you've lightened a car for race use (unless the track is incredibly smooth).
The type of tires you run also makes a difference in suspension setup/choice.

Your choice of spring rate is important and may affect your decision regarding what setup you choose to go with. Does your car have added weight and where? (ex: Subwoofers in the trunk) if you take it to a track often, what is the track like? Smooth as butter, or more like a normal street with imperfections and bumps here and there?
What setup suits your driving style? Depending on what setup you pick will give you a drastic difference in how the car behaves.

[Skym]

I agree with what you have said, as they do play a role in suspension setup and different suspension setups do have + and -.

Whiteline has some info that backs up what you were saying about bumpy roads, racetracks and different suspension setup used in second to last paragraph -

http://www.whiteline.com.au/document.php?title=Dampers+or+shocks+-+What+do+they+do%3F&document=&part=&description=A+damper+or+shock+absorber+does+not+actually+absorb+shocks.+Springs+absorb+shocks+by+compressing+in+response+to+vertical+acceleration.+The+primary+function+of+a+shock+absorber+is+to+dampen+the+kinetic+energy+stored+in+the+spring+as+the+spring+compresses.+It+converts+this+energy+into+heat+which+is+one+of+the+reasons+we+have+gas+shocks%2C+but+more+on+that+later.+When+the+force+that+caused+the+compression+goes+away%2C+this+stored+energy+releases+and+the+spring+extends+with+a+lot+of+force.+Imagine+a+pogo+stick.%0A%0ANow%2C+before+we+confuse+everyone+too+much.+We%27ll+refer+to+a+shock+as+a+damper+and+vice+versa+through+out+this+explanation.+Technically+speaking+damper+is+more+correct%2C+but+shock+is+fine+as+long+we+keep+in+mind+what+its+actual+job+is.+It%27s+also+important+to+note+that+a+shock%27s+rate+needs+to+match+the+spring+and+the+swaybar.+This+is+why+tuned+suspension+packages+are+a+such+a+good+choice.%0A%0AShock+absorbers+are+inherently+velocity+sensitive+(despite+the+marketing+hype).+That+is%2C+the+faster+the+piston+moves+(increased+vertical+acceleration)+the+more+resistance+or+damping+will+result.+This+is+due+to+one+of+the+laws+of+fluid+dynamics%2C+which+states+that+a+fluid%27s+resistance+to+flow+through+any+given+orifice+will+increase+directly+as+the+square+function+of+flow+velocity.+The+bottom+line+is+the+harder+the+damper+works%2C+the+harder+it+works!%0A%0ABecause+a+shock+absorber+is+velocity+sensitive+by+nature%2C+it+has+to+be+load+sensitive+because+the+velocity+is+produced+by+an+acceleration%2C+which+is+composed+of+force+and+velocity.%0A%0AIn+order+to+maintain+sensitivity+at+low+displacements%2C+valving+has+to+be+arranged+so+that+little+damping+takes+places+at+low+piston+velocities+and+conversely+substantial+damping+takes+place+at+high+piston+velocities.+All+fluid+filled+shock+absorbers+are+therefore+velocity+sensitive%2C+a+good+shock+absorber+will+also+be+frequency+sensitive.+And+this+is+often+what+separates+the+good+from+the+average.+Naturally+its+difficult+to+get+a+real+frequency+sensitive+solution+for+very+little+money.%0A%0AThe+current+state+of+the+art+in+racecar+technology+is+to+lower+the+spring+rate+as+much+as+possible+whilst+increasing+the+swaybar+rate+as+high+as+possible.+This+allows+the+tyre+to+follow+the+road+surface+maintaining+the+maximum+grip+possible.+If+the+spring+rate+or+bar+rate+is+too+high+then+it+will+hop+from+bump+to+bump+losing+traction.+The+bar+controls+the+roll%2C+the+soft+(relatively)+spring+deflects+for+the+bumps+and+the+rebound+on+the+shock+can+therefore+be+set+at+a+relatively+lower%2Fsofter+level.%0A%0ASo%2C+next+time+your+asked+by+a+salesman+to+%22pull+his+levers%22+and+see+how+stiff+their+particular+shock+is%2C+remember+that+stiff+ISN%27T+always+better.+And%2C+you+can%27t+possible+simulate+the+high+frequency+of+road+bump+deflection+with+your+hand.+No+matter+how+well+practiced+you+may+be.&image=%2Fimages%2Fdefault.jpg&img1=%2Fimages%2Fmisc%2Fkoni1s.jpg&img2=&img3=&cat=FAQ

Also removing HICAS requires adjustments in suspension setup (swaybars).

[cobrAA]

Being flat out with you cobraa, Id stay away from coil overs all together with the requirements you have. A good sport type strut, with damper adjustments would suit you well. Even spend a little extra and buy adjustable top camber plates with pillow mounts for that added adjustment.

Entry type would be either KYB or Tein NA's
Higher grade Nismo or Ohlin's C type

As for coilovers, there a pain in the arse. I've been dialling in my JIC's little by little with various spring swaps. In the end its hard to find a perfect match for short and long circuits. Little hardcore.

Thank for the reply.

I also want coilover because I would like to see my car dropped by 1 inch more.

[support@feastauto]

Thank for the reply.

I also want coilover because I would like to see my car dropped by 1 inch more.

No worries mate.

These two vehicles ran the Tein NA's with a Tein spring set up and had a good stance all around. Somewhat perfect.

[Daryl @ RightDrive]

Thank for the reply.

I also want coilover because I would like to see my car dropped by 1 inch more.

I think there are a lot of very valid and good points brought up in this thread concerning the technical issues surrounding coilovers, but for your application it's a bit of overkill. You can probably choose any major brand, with the proper spring rate, and be very happy with them. I'd say that $1100 is a bit on the cheap side though. Increasing your budget to around $1500 will give you a lot more options.
Also, I'd stay away from used coilovers, you never know what you will get. A friend of mine bought a super clean set of Zeals off Yahoo, look like they hadn't been used. 1 of the coilovers were blown. So you never know.

I have the HKS IIs on my car, and I love them. In my opinion they have a really nice spring rate, ok for streetability, yet still aggressive when I race at Suzuka. Dampening is good as well, with a wide range of adjustment.
This is what my stance looks like as well:

[FormerVDubber]

You could cut your spring down if you really want to get it low...LOL...no, no, no don't do that.

BTW, Daryl your car looks really good. Is Suzuka a rough track, or pretty smooth? My only reference is the video game version

[Daryl @ RightDrive]

You could cut your spring down if you really want to get it low...LOL...no, no, no don't do that.

BTW, Daryl your car looks really good. Is Suzuka a rough track, or pretty smooth? My only reference is the video game version

Suzuka has been totally renovated for this year as F1 is coming back.
The surface is super smooth, however there was a little bump on the back straight that was a bit unnerving.
Personally I think it's the best track in Japan, glad to see F1 has come to their senses and moved back to Suzuka.
If you are interested in any pics: http://www.tunerlab.jp/photos/thumbnails.php?album=16

Now back on topic

[cobrAA]

Ok. Daryl, What could you give me for 1500$ shipped?