RB26 Power-readiness; Fact, fiction, and BS.

[Prenihility]

Alright, first off, i want to say hi to everyone on the GTRCanada forums. This will mark my first post and thread here.

I will be asking a series of questions, and i would very much like to get an honest answer. That means no bias (yes, we're all skyline fans here, but, still... I would like only the truth), no nut-swinger answers pertaining specifically to a certain group of cars. Just reality.

I'll get straight to it. Now the Skyline, more specifically the Skyline GTR; and the RB26 is known to produce serious amounts of POWER, JAM, FIRE...Whatever you prefer to refer to it as - whatever gets you going. The RB26s , as im sure most know, have been more refined after every consecutive iteration of the car. R32-34. Lets Leave pre-1992 RB26 out of the equation. They had some issues with wearing out the oil pump because of the main journal bearing of the crankshaft apparently being machined too small.

Allright. Out of the factory (this applies to the R34 ESPECIALLY) the GTR is definately a performer. However, it is in no way in it's optimal power level, and it's TRUE performance is unleashed once it gets tuned to a certain point. In short, it's a de-tuned car. There's no argument there.

Why would i be mentioning the above, you ask? Well, it's simple. I want to know exactly where the RB26 stands, how it responds to mods, and most of all, how it will respond to more power, and whether it is up to the task. Internals, well, i already know that they are good for the 600 range. In the R34 at least, i know they're able to withstand power in the 800 range; so i've heard.

The need of supporting mods is my main question, really. If, say, you JUST want to install bigger turbines, can they simply be installed, without any need for any other additional mods?

Producing more power in general, are supporting mods necessary?

Now, some of you may look down on me for mentioning this, but it's a prime example. Ford's 4.6 mod found in the 2003-04' Mustang Cobra. It simply accepts more power. No matter what you fit onto it. It runs like a clock, without a hitch. No supporting mods needed.

I heard that dry-sump lubrication is an almost necessary mod when it comes to producing extreme power (1000+range). Is this true?

I've heard that RBs only produce power temporarily, for short amounts of time. I believe this is simply the talk of USDM purists, though. I mean...This isn't a Honda B16 running 600+ HP... Those last, what? A run at the drag strip?

My question in all of this, though, is; Is it all necessary? Can the RB26 simply be given more power, and hold it? Hold it reliably? The internals i am not questioning. The oil pump, cooling, the engine management. Are they all ready, from the get-go, to produce more power? And, once again, hold it without any problems?

[bobbo]

Man there is SOOO much info on this site covering all of your questions. There are Skyline websites with expectations from following certian "formulas" and what people have seen for results with certain modifications.
Take some time to read through the threads on here and all your questions will be answered. The search function is your friend.
Welcome to GTRC!

[hozer]

GT-R's will accept 'more' power upto a certain point, as any engine would. There is a limit however and everyone will tell you a different limit... All depends on how much money and time you have to spend and how much "insurance" you'd like.

Do you need to dry sump a 600WHP RB? I didn't, others have. Some have pushed those numbers on near stock internals, my engine is fully upgraded bottom up. Like I said, it all depends.

[Prenihility]

GT-R's will accept 'more' power upto a certain point, as any engine would. There is a limit however and everyone will tell you a different limit... All depends on how much money and time you have to spend and how much "insurance" you'd like.

Do you need to dry sump a 600WHP RB? I didn't, others have. Some have pushed those numbers on near stock internals, my engine is fully upgraded bottom up. Like I said, it all depends.

Could you elaborate on "it all depends". If some people have gone up to the 600 range with stock internals, while others haven't why is that?

Also, links, anyone?

[speedfreak]

What's your reason for asking about the internal limits to the Rb26?
Remember that all these engines have an unknown past so everyone's comfort level for pushing
The internals will be dependent on how ready you are to replace that engine.
I think there is a sticky'd list of internal mods in the GTR tech section which lists the essentials
to make the engine reliable to 600+ numbers.
Life of a build engine is not dependent on the parts only but the build and tune of it.
The best build can be destroyed in seconds with a bad tune.

My apology , I re-read your post to clarify.

In stock trim without any "mods" as you call them if you were to replace the turbos to larger turbo you would be limited to your engine management and fuel system.
GTR injectors are only 444cc.
Seriouse Power cannot be made without support

[cortexx]

An easier way to tackle your question would be to get your engine checked out , then post compression ratio's, current mods , milage , your actual goals - then you start to form a plan of attack

There is a big difference between a 40k car with a completely oem setup with a full service history can handle compared to a car that has 200k on original enigne with just about every bolt on ebay mod available .

Lets start off by asking how big your budget is after purchasing your car , that is the most important question of all and will be the main deciding factor on what you chose to do with the car .

[Prenihility]

Im not in need of help with a build or anything. This is simply a discussion. Let's just assume the engine isn't a POS. Then what? Say you want to simply install a bigger set of turbines? Bigger injectors and/or ECU tune to compensate for more intake air.

Im just thinking (again, sorry, but i can't get this out any other way) the Ford 4.6 Mod again. You slap on another, aftermarket Supercharger, and you see instant power, without the need of supporting mods, because the engine, from the get-go, is ready to handle it. That, in a nutshell, is what i want to talk about.

So, the above tuning i mentioned, can it be done? Assuming the engine is in excellent condition, has never been messed around with, neglected, or abused. Turbines, injectors/ECU tune, so it doesn't run too lean.

But again, reading your posts, i feel like im really being incompetent... Yes, it depends on what you want the engine to do, but, again, im not favouring one tuning preference/ideal.

This is basically response to mods, and how well power is held. And of course it's assuming the engine is NOT a wreck.

[cortexx]

Assuming the engine is not a wreck - you can remove the boost control restrictor (a small plug in the vac line) to allow the car to boost 1 bar (i think) - nissan marked the line with a yellow band so people would know how to do this mod, replace downpipe and exhaust system with something that breathes a bit better )this all probably gives you around 330-340 hp on a healthy engine. , install a set of n1 turbos that dont have ceramic exhaust wheels . This can all be supported by the factory ECU and fuel system .

You can then grab a nistune module and mod your ecu so that a tuner can start altering fuel maps and ignition timing to improve power , mod the intake system (filtration)to help increase volumetric efficiency . I would use an external oil cooler at this point to help keep oil temps under control , electronic boost controller to run slightly more boost .

You can make up to around 400 hp on these mods relatively safely with stock internals and fuel system ( theoretical power made on engine with factory injectors is 440hp at 100% IDC which no one really wants to run close to the bone, 380 - 400 is about as close as i would like to get assuming they are around 15 years old).

From then on you have to ask yourself alot of questions - going further starts to cost exponentially more money . If you want to keep it reliable - you have to start to consider internal refresh , maybe upgrade a few areas of weakness .

hope that helps , further info at this point requires a ton of research and alot of planning . No 2 people will give you the same advice at this point and there is no definitive right way to approach it. There are alot of wrong ways to approach it though !

Once you take the plunge you wont be looking back at your ford

[xcye]

I'd say
1. With everything stock, it will do up to 350whp reliablely.
2. With Fuel, Clutch, a good oil set up and a good tune, a health RB26 engine should be able to handle 500whp reliablely.

[Prenihility]

Assuming the engine is not a wreck - you can remove the boost control restrictor (a small plug in the vac line) to allow the car to boost 1 bar (i think) - nissan marked the line with a yellow band so people would know how to do this mod, replace downpipe and exhaust system with something that breathes a bit better )this all probably gives you around 330-340 hp on a healthy engine. , install a set of n1 turbos that dont have ceramic exhaust wheels . This can all be supported by the factory ECU and fuel system .

You can then grab a nistune module and mod your ecu so that a tuner can start altering fuel maps and ignition timing to improve power , mod the intake system (filtration)to help increase volumetric efficiency . I would use an external oil cooler at this point to help keep oil temps under control , electronic boost controller to run slightly more boost .

You can make up to around 400 hp on these mods relatively safely with stock internals and fuel system ( theoretical power made on engine with factory injectors is 440hp at 100% IDC which no one really wants to run close to the bone, 380 - 400 is about as close as i would like to get assuming they are around 15 years old).

From then on you have to ask yourself alot of questions - going further starts to cost exponentially more money . If you want to keep it reliable - you have to start to consider internal refresh , maybe upgrade a few areas of weakness .

hope that helps , further info at this point requires a ton of research and alot of planning . No 2 people will give you the same advice at this point and there is no definitive right way to approach it. There are alot of wrong ways to approach it though !


Once you take the plunge you wont be looking back at your ford

Eeeeerrrr... That seems like a decent amount of work. In relation to how much power is gained, it's kinda disappointing...

350 Wheel is...What, about 420 Crank? And, xcye's post is the perfect example of what this thread is all about, and most importantly what i want to know, and what im asking.

Also, the RB already outputs around 315 HP... Im a bit rattled right now...

Completeness of the drivetrain. The Cobras 4.6 Mod (yes, i know, mentioning it again), and everything you do to it won't have negating effects on any other part of the drivetrain. The clutch needs replacing on the GTR? Well the Cobra doesn't, and THAT's what im expecting from the GTR, NOT a base model Skyline, like a GTST trim, or GTT.

From what i'm hearing from you guys, it seems like you're applying all of this, by default, to the R32 GTR... How about the R33, i'd ask about the R34, but since it isn't coming here just yet (few more years; it's my goal we'll leave it out of the equation.

Alright. How about the R33, then. Because the 32s drivetrain is starting to sound like a slouch...

Basically, now im applying all of my questions to the R33. What's the situation now?


Sidenote: I don't own a Cobra, im just using the car as an example, as it's a perfect candidate.That's what i mean by power-readiness. These supporting mods are something i'd expect from a non-GTR Skyline. 4.6 Modular, indeed .

Just don't take this the wrong way. The Skyline is an obsession of mine. I just want to know more. Im not a USDM fanboy here to start BS. Im here to hear the truth, and not some youtube comments from kids who've been playing too much Gran Turismo and watching too much Fast and the Furious. Claiming the car can beat "ANYTHING"... Due to it's Million-bajillion horsepower....

[cortexx]

most worn rb26 engines wont be making 315 crank , they will be making around 300 maybe a bit less due to wear and tear with age. My hp figures are a conservative crank amount.

Don't try and compare the cobras engine with a skyline engine that is 20 years old , if you want a single mod that makes a large amount of power or don't like the complexity , necessity to put the work into an RB engine then this isnt your platform ..

If you do some basic homework you'll realise that the r32 r33 and r34 rb26 are basically the same engine with a few refinements along the way .

I have an R33 and I have put alot of work into it so far and am in the process of building a forged motor for it . You asked for basically a mods list and what power they would make , both myself and xcye gave your basically the same answer , his power estimations are awhp mine are crank , i am conservative , he is a bit more liberal , the principle is the same.

[xcye]

To me, Skyline GT-R is not really about how much power it puts down, but how fast it goes around corners. R33 GT-R in its stock form went around the Nur Ring in just under 8:00 Minutes if I remember correctly, while it only had officially 280hp (Or 315hp according to Cortexx) at the crank. On a straight line and in its stock form, it can't even beat a slightly modded Dodge Neon. So, I think a more appropriate question , if you are considering mod a car like Skyline GT-R, would be something like (Just an example) how much money it will cost me to make the car to run around the ring under 7:30.

Cortexx: I am laughing about your Liberal comments! Very well said.

[cortexx]

All meant in the least polical way of course

[Prenihility]

Why of course i know all the Skyline GTRs have RB26s. If you've read my whole initial post, i even said it; every consecutive model of the car has a more refined RB.

Im sorry to sound like a broken tape-recorder here...But, i've said it once, i'll say it again. It isn't necessarily 20 years old, and my questions don't apply just to the R32s, folks. Also, going back to the Cobra? Why not compare them (yes, yes, we won't get into the details of configurations, displacement, etc.)? In terms of age, the Cobras engine is just as old. Well, 2 years younger than the RB, but still, quite old, nonetheless.

When it comes to USDM engines, the LS1 is the engine that gets power output, but needs supporting mods. Take a firebird, for example... It NEEDS a new clutch for that power. It WILL slip. The RB25s need supporting mods, RB20s, same thing.

The GTR is the premier version of the Skyline. I just want to hear from an R34 owner...But, well... That isn't going to happen anytime soon .

All im saying/asking is: Why not make certain parts of the drivetrain ready for more power? The clutch, should have been able to handle more out of the factory. The internals are excellent. I have faith in the pistons, rods, and crank. RBs are known for their strong internals. As far as Complexity? Hell, i think that applies with tuning any engine, if you want to take it to a serious level.

I can play should have, could have, would have all i want. Reality is reality, i get it. But, the GTR doesn't come off as the car; more precisely, the RB26 doesn't seem like the engine that is supposed to have all of these crutch-like supporting mods in order for it to safely produce more power.


Also, xcye... Can't even beat a slightly modded Dodge Neon...? You sure you got a Skyline GTR? .
A stock GTR, regardless of which, R32, R33 even moreso, will spank those compact 4-cyl cars...The GTR isn't the NSX... Overpriced, and pretty, but doesn't go particularly fast.

In the end, really, power-ready with certain parts, or not... It all comes down to one thing, in the end... Money.

Now the RB26 responds to mods WELL. Excellent results with just breathing mods.

How about you, cortexx? How much money have you spent so far, if you don't mind me asking? Also, like i said, let's take the age/condition out of the equation here. Let's just assume all RBs are in excellent condition.

Oh, just one more thing i want to add; the Skyline GTR would have much more power if it weren't for the then Japanese laws that restricted power. Also, keep in mind, they are, in fact very, very DETUNED engines. The GTR isn't even at it's optimal power/performance level with that ouput. I'd say the 600 range is the sweetspot. The chassis can handle, the internals can, what's more to say? While it's already fun enough to drive the car in the mid-300 range, it's not what the car was intended to be. That, i do know, for a fact.


Also, thanks for not losing your wits with me, guys

[bobbo]

Here's my findings...

I bought my car virtually stock. It had an exhaust, pod filters and I removed the boost restrictor. I used a G-Teck meter, weighed the car at a gov't scale and the car made consistantly WHP #'s in the 280 range.

The following year I changed the clutch (old one was cooked when I got the car) to a twin disk OSG, a PFC with Apexi boost controller, Datalogit and virtually replaced the ignition system to cure a misfire.
The results were (under virtually the exact conditions) 0-60mph consistantly around 4.1-4.3 sec, 1/4 mile around mid 12's and 317whp.

I've lined up (in a safe closed off area) with my good friends '10 M3 w/Track Pack and MURDERED him at a launch, and from a second gear pull still continuously pulled away until I let off at about 160kms.

I've lined up with my other good friends C5 Z06 and again no chance from a launch and at a rolling run they were tied together. At the track (he's an instructor) with him on R888s and me on Direzza Star Specs I can out run him.

I bought the car for a very good price, I got lucky because it was a super solid car that needed some minor mechanicale/electrical details sorted. After that all I've done is brakes and the above listed items. Considering my dollars spent those who know the car think it's amazing that a 20 year old car with minimal investment can run with (or away from) much higher dollar and more modern cars. Yes there is the driver variable, I do have quite a few years of track experience but so do the drivers I mentioned above.

The problem I've found is all the mods everyone seems to think you NEED to make are based on if your are beating the car to death on a daily basis. It seems the JDM parts market make their sales based on FEAR. "Buy our parts or your car will burst into flames!"