question about running my 2860-5's

[archaeic_bloke]

hey, so my setup will be as follows:

Skyline GTR - R32 - 1991

- compression tested to (165 PSI across the board)
- N1 oil + N1 water pumps
- garrett 2860R-5's
- ARC intercooler + hard piping kit + Apexi cold induction kit
- full 3.5" exhaust
- *ordering* Tomei or HKS outlet pipes for turbos


heres my question: ... i will leave the stock boost restrictor solenoid in place. --> CAN the stock boost restrictor handle the job of keeping these beastly turbos below 1.0 Bar?....

u see i had enough money to buy all this stuff but i need to wait in order to get new injectors, AFM's, and fuel pump + a new tune.

i basically just want to know if i can run all this gear on a standard ecu, with out re-tuning? like as long as i keep it below 1.0 bar everything should be fine right? and the oem gear can keep it below 1 bar right?



SECOND PART:
what if i install a boost controller? for example the Blitz SBC dual spec or something? would that be better to keep it at 1.0 Bar?... how high could i crank the boost without causing issues? and risking a lean condition?

those in the know, please enlighten me, im really not keen on destroying my engine.

thanks,

[evilgtr]

You should be safe to run it with the stock tune, I would strongly reccomend a tune ASAP though just to be safe. You have some great mods so be safe or youll be adding a rebuild to that list.

Is there a shop near you where you can throw it on the rollers to have a reflash done to your factory ecu ?

Just a side note - I am running a Blitz sper r dual solenoid boost controller and I love it. Easy to set and holds like a rock ! My low boost setting gain is set at %15 which is around 12 psi with no problems running that low of boost on N1's.

[Velders]

I would recommend a tune right away. I'm pretty sure the wastegate springs that come with -5's are 1.0bar springs, so you won't be able to run any less with a boost controller. Your right foot/boost gauge will be your boost controller. But I would never advise running a turbo setup with a fuel system that has no hope of keeping up. That being said, if you baby it to a shop for a tune I would think you should be alright.

[Skym]

From experience with factory tune on RB20DET (mainly fuel maps) + bigger turbo, a bigger turbo can make engine go leaner at lower rpms where turbo reaches full boost, but be safe or near to perfect A/F ratio at higher rpm's due to knock fuel map when running a lowish boost level.

But with 3.5 inch exhaust, ARC intercooler, turbo's will probably naturally want to boost higher than you think (up to 13.5psi+). But factory GTR ECU has knock boost maps, so should drop boost level (when knock is detected via knock sensor) if there is problem with ECU tune.

I would lower the boost level as much as you can or keep engine below 8psi on boost gauge to make sure engine doesn't go lean (bigger turbo's move more air than stock turbo's at same boost level) at lower rpm's. Stock GTR injectors are good for 390 hp at engine with safe duty cycle, so should provide plenty of fuel at higher rpm's. If your turbo's have HKS adjustable internal wastegate actuators, adjust the actuator arm length to lower boost level (I think can drop boost level by 1.4psi or so).

I compared the R32 RB26, RB20 fuel maps and R32 RB26 ECU seems to inject less fuel at lower rpm's (might be due to bigger injectors) than RB20 fuel maps, but is similar at higher rpm's. So I would lower boost level as much as you can.

[Velders]

You would have to look further into this one, but another idea you could try is to not run a boost controller, and use wastgate spring pressure only, your response will probably go to hell. I rode in a gtr with the same turbo's with not boost controller and spring pressure only and it didn't make 1 bar until ~5000 rpm. That might help you keep things under control.

[Skym]

On a dyno with wideband is best way to adjust boost level.

If ECU is untuned and need it tuned, use a flat bed tow truck to transport car to tuner. That's if your worried about engine blowing up due to unsafe ECU tune.

[DougTaylor]

Have a look at mine - gt2860r-5s with no boost controller and just the stock springs on the turbos for now. I have Poncam Bs which help the turbos hit full boost sooner (4K) I think, but max boost is 13.71 psi. I also have 1000 cc injectors for the fuel ..

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/c/2/4/156417/dyno-0.jpg?r=t

[archaeic_bloke]

ok, well ive done some research and talked to a few people and read all yours responses which are much appreciated as they further confirm my suspicions. heres my options and issues:


THE PROBLEMsss:

- Like many of you said, 2860's flow WAY more air than stock turbos, so 1 bar of pressure is a LOT more air then 1 bar from stock turbos... therefore i can't install these turbos without supporting mods and a re-tune.

- the second problem is that our only tuner out here in the Montreal, Quebec area has gone away to Vietnam for the next couple of months, and has gotten a reputation of not being the tuner he once was, bad customer service, rockstar attitude, and not as keen on getting the best tune, (from what i've heard... maybe its all not true?)

POSSIBLE OPTIONS:

1) don't install turbos just yet, wait untill i have money to buy: Injectors, Fuel pump, AFM's, PFC (L-Jetro), Boost controller, and turbo outlet pipes.

PRO: no risk of blowing engine, car will be driveable much sooner,less pressure on me to come up with money quickly.

CON: no turbo upgrade ... have to take the engine out again when the time comes to change the turbos later...once all that parts are acquired

2) use next paycheque to buy turbo outlets, Install turbos with outlets as soon as its all arrived here, buy injectors + fuel pump probably a month from now, a boost controller 2 weeks after that etc...

PRO: car will be awesome

CON: car won't be ready probably until mid-summer, won't be useable untill its tuned which in itself is another huge problem, super expensive and high pressure on me to come up with money week after week..


*sigh* just reading through this it sounds like i've already made up my mind eh?

what would you guys do?

[DJ]

**** Robin is gone,who the hell is going to tune my car!!!!

sorry for the irrelevant reply to your question

[cobrAA]

- the second problem is that our only tuner out here in the Montreal, Quebec area has gone away to Vietnam for the next couple of months, and has a BAD reputation of not being the tuner he once was, bad customer service, rockstar attitude, and not as keen on getting the best tune, including a history of blowing up engines on the dyno ( i know of at least 2 that went boom under his watch this past summer)

I must agree on this one but for the rest.. I never heard bad thing about him.

[archaeic_bloke]

well i recall a post on RHDquebec last summer about a customer of his who was very upset.

spoke to someone who had their car tuned there and complained about smoking in the car while tuning it, then getting into a yelling and swearing battle over it. in the end the guy left.

another person saying how he had an apointment for 2pm and his car didnt get tuned until 6pm

etc etc... lots of little complaints, but i still think robin is very good at tuning, but by far the most common thing people say is "he'll tune your car really good.. as long as he like your car"

[GTR-Dad]

Everyone has a bad day once in a while. I wouldn't write someone off because of something I read on the internet.

Get a tune for sure, but if you stay off boost it'll be pretty hard to hurt your engine so you can drive to the tuner even if it's a highway trip. I'd be much more comfortable if there was a wideband gauge fitted so you know what your mixture is and a pre-turbo EGT sensor so you know if you're running too hot. (Running lean is only a problem if EGTs are too high or if performance is problematic.)

The wastegate springs on my 2860's is adjustable, so you could turn them down, but you want to make sure they're both opening at the same pressure or you'll get poor results.

Dan

[MikeM@Ztune]

Hey Josh, we already talked about it on the phone, so as you know, I STONGLY suggest bigger injectors, fuel pump & safe chip tune before running those turbos. 1 thing goes wrong with big turbos, and you need a new engine

As Dan suggested, lowering the base boost and keeping an eye on AFRs and EGTs and staying out of boost can work, but lets face it, staying out of boost is pretty hard to do..especially when going up steep hills. Turbo cars like to boost!

At 1 bar, GT2860s flow WAY more air than stock turbos, and I've seen people melt stock engines at .8 bar on turbos smaller than those. You never want to risk leaning out and throwing EGTs through the roof, so having too much fuel is always safer than not enough, especially on an engine as healthy as yours

I'll follow up with you about some of the parts we talked about tomorrow. In terms of the tuning, I have another customer in TO interested in having us fly out to tune the RB28 we're building him, so that might work out well if your friends are interested in getting their tuning done around the same time. Any idea how long a Greyhound bus ride from Montreal to TO is?

If we get enough people in Quebec and Ontario interested in tuning, flying Jurie out may be a viable option!

[cobrAA]

well i recall a post on RHDquebec last summer about a customer of his who was very upset.

spoke to someone who had their car tuned there and complained about smoking in the car while tuning it, then getting into a yelling and swearing battle over it. in the end the guy left.

another person saying how he had an apointment for 2pm and his car didnt get tuned until 6pm

etc etc... lots of little complaints, but i still think robin is very good at tuning, but by far the most common thing people say is "he'll tune your car really good.. as long as he like your car"

yeah what you say is true. I went there 3-4 times. Have you speak to autowork. I'm sure there's other dyno around montreal!

[cobrAA]

Hey Josh, we already talked about it on the

I'll follow up with you about some of the parts we talked about tomorrow. In terms of the tuning, I have another customer in TO interested in having us fly out to tune the RB28 we're building him, so that might work out well if your friends are interested in getting their tuning done around the same time. Any idea how long a Greyhound bus ride from Montreal to TO is?

If we get enough people in Quebec and Ontario interested in tuning, flying Jurie out may be a viable option!

You know what.. I might end up with -9 and I don,t hate the idea that ztune tune my car