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  • RB26 oil system

    Discussions about the RB26 oil system crop up pretty often, so we'd like to pull together some good information to guide GTRCers.

    Feel free to contribute within the following guidelines:
    1 - No internet fear mongering or repeating stuff you heard somewhere. If you've had bad experiences with a particular component, please post them along with relavent details about the application. (Max revs, hitting rev limiter or not, lateral or longitudinal g's, etc)

    2 - Opinions are fine, but experience and sound reasoning are even better!

    3 - Don't take it personally if someone disagrees with you. Differing perspectives make for great learning opportunities.

    I'll start out with a summary of my own thoughts on this topic.

    Eric (XSDAILO) has been kind enough to provide a summary of XS Engineering's guidelines.

    Dan's thoughts:

    I've heard some guys correlating problems with oil systems to high power engines, but to my thinking the problems follow this path....

    Most common common oil system failures are pump hardware failure and oil pickup starvation. The second can cause the first, as pointed out here.
    http://forums.gtrcanada.com/showthread.php?t=25385

    ----N1 oilpump side discussion---------
    Almost every N1 oil pump failure story I've read (and I've read 'em all) includes either reving over 8000 rpm and/or bouncing off the rev limiter. Bolts need to be lok-tighted in too.

    Every component has it's limit and the N1 pump isn't made to spin over 8k or rattle off the rev limiter.)
    ----back on topic----------

    Mechanical pump failure is usually caused by over revving and 'shocking' the pump. Shock is best minimized by staying off the rev limiter, balancing, and perhaps by running an upgraded crank dampener. (Perhaps because I've yet to find any hard data support the reasoning behind this claim.)

    On the oil starvation side,
    1 - Wet sump oil system failure correlates to the pickup sucking air or foamy oil. This correlation may not be 100%, but I'll bet it's close enough for our applications.
    2 - Low oil level at the pickup results from a combination of low oil level in the sump (more on that in a second) and both longitudinal and/or lateral accelleration.

    Low oil level in the sump is caused by either not enough oil in the system (easily avoidable!) or oil pooling in the head and therefore not sitting in the sump. The restrictor orifice will help here, but free oil return from the head to the sump is a key for extented high rpm operation.

    The sump baffle will delay the onset of accelleration related grief, but there are definately limits. I don't know what they are, but the laws of physics dictate that there's combination of accelleration magnitude and duration that will expose the oil pickup. The baffle will significantly raise the magnitude of the tolerable transient g force, but if you spend more than X seconds sustaining high g's the oil will still run past the baffle and ....

    I'm pretty sure about the basic info I've written, but I've only got limited info on acceleration limits for:
    - no sump baffle (1.0 g 80% lateral, 20% longitudinal OK, 1.2 g not so much)
    - sump baffle
    - extended sump (not sure if a baffle is necessary here)

    ------------------------------------

    Eric's input:
    I don't know if I can give you any "definitive" information, but I can tell you the guidelines which we (xs) typically use for deciding what pump to use for which application. This is not THE word. This is simply how we decide based on our RB26 GT-R experience. If people disagree, so be it. Let them.

    BNR32 stock pump = less than 7500rpm, less than 500whp street/drag & 400whp road race, stock restrictor. If doing a new build, I immediately throw the stock pump away.

    BCNR33/BNR34 wide drive stock pump = less than 7500whp, less than 500whp, stock restrictor. If doing a new build, I immediately throw the stock pump away.

    N1 pump = I never use it. It's a stock pump with a higher rate pressure relief valve spring. I've never used the Nismo pump either.

    Greddy pump = less than 8000rpm, less than 600whp, 1.5mm restrictor. I generally do not use this pump unless the customer is cheap and supplies it himself.

    HKS pump = less than 8500rpm, less than 1000whp (if street or drag), less than 800whp if road raced, 1.5mm restrictor

    Tomei pump = less than 9000rpm, less than 1000whp (if street or drag), less than 800whp if road raced, 1.5mm restrictor. I generally use this pump on almost all of our builds.

    4 or 5 stage dry sump = the absolute best for any configuration

    When doing a build for a road/canyon racing application, at the very least I use the Nismo baffle. On a serious effort car, we run the Greddy sump with a custom modified Nismo baffle.

    An oil cooler is an absolute MUST on the RB26 at any stage of modification. The RB26 is a long engine with MANY bearing/journal surfaces and a cramped, poorly flowing engine bay so oil temperatures are high in general. Even the Nismo bearings cannot handle sustained 110degC oil temperatures. I am excited about the new Cosworth bearings because they will handle the higher temperatures without the surface flaking.

    On an engine with sustained 6000+ rpm use in mind, namely road racing, I typically use the HKS ATI dampener. I've only used the ATI USA dampener once before. In my opinion the ATI USA model is too narrow and uses one less o-ring than the HKS unit. The HKS unit is based the thicker small block Chevy unit and does NOT overdrive the A/C compressor to 50,000,000 rpm like the ATI USA unit does.

    Those would be my tips for the oiling system. I hope this can help out.

    Thanks
    Eric
    ------------------------
    sigpic
    The Beaumont Connection

  • #2
    What about the JUN pump?
    1991 Case 580K 2WD Extendahoe (aka "Brutus")
    2006 Ford F350 SD PSD Crew DRW (aka "Monster")
    2006 Kubota F2880 60" Mower & 51" Snowblower (aka "Buzz")

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    • #3
      I will be testing a JUN pump out at 11000 rpm come next summer.

      Despite a lot of people telling me to use a tomei adjustable pressure pump.

      I have yet to hear enough poor feedback on the JUN to kick it out of my door.

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      • #4
        I've used the JUN pumps on many good enignes and have found them to be very good.

        I have now started using TOMEI pumps as they do seem to be the top of the line for a direct bolt in pump and they also are externally adjustable.

        Rob
        RIPS Racing
        Worlds most powerfull RB30, 7.8 @ 177.4mph in 240z and 7.26 @ 181mph in FED
        Worlds quickest R34 street GTR, Worlds quickest 240z
        RIPS FED best of 7.26 @ 181mph, and current NZ record for DD/D
        NZs quickest street car overall and NZs quickest full trim street GTR
        Mild to wild RB30s, 7,8,9,10 sec street/drag cars built to order, custom fabrication, worldwide shipping

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        • #5
          Do the boys at XS do any modifications to the drive itself? Iíve noticed that the drive and pump are at the max tolerances and the drive actually jingles in the pump. The machining tolerances are not up to the quality that we need to expect. The size of the jun collar is also the exact same as the drives on the factory cranks. Anyone can see this very clearly is you grab the jun collar and place it alone inside the N1 pump. I am assuming that the Jun pump would have the same problem in clearance issues. The drives almost looks like the milling on the flat spots are more of the issue overall but I am no machinist. Either way, this should be a snug fit to help with the prevention of smashing.

          Iíve got a friend in Ausi that builds rb's religiously. He is running a RB26 in his TK R33 GTR. Approx 600+ WHP with N1 pump. Now we all know that the rev limiter is key to not killing your pump so I ask him a little more about his engine set up. He spins it to 9000rpm No rev limiter. 9200RPM, ign timing set to 0 deg and 100% duty. Drag/street car. Factory N1 pump!!! :S Running this set up for a few years now. I agree that a factory pump spinning more than 7500-8000 is too much, I donít disagree on that at all but he said there isnít much of a problem with them as long as the drive isnít rattling. My bud may have had over 100 RB's on the dyno. Some factory spec and HP and some tweaked for fun. He's never broken a N1 pump on the dyno. He's broken them off the dyno but only on times the rev limiter was hit.

          I think that it is possible that the whole pump smash issue could have something to do with the clearances of the drive on the crank and the pump. Iíve got a friend who is a machinist thatís building a new drive to properly fit with pump. Iím going to try it out and see what goes for the next season with a N1. If it busts I will prob just build a 4 stage dry cuz we can all agree we love the rb but we also like our bearings to stay in the journal.

          As said above to lock tight the backing plate on the pump. Is a must. I've pulled apart a few now with the only thing holding the pump together is the girdle.

          Just some info I've heard of and seen personally. If it were up to me Id have a dry set up on all my rb's but if the problem can be fixed with a proper drive from the get go Iím all ears. Iím just thinking to myself, no vibration on the pump then why would it smash. No other cars with same designs have the same issue so ya... :S BTW XS, your GTR is nutz. Iíve seen it in person and the fab work is very nice. GOOD WORK!
          ALLEN PETERSEN
          Number (604) 961-2449
          4XTOYS/ Lower Mainland Skyline Service and aftermarket RB parts.
          RB30`s for sale!

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          • #6
            Great write up guys thanks!!!

            Could you please elaborate on what needs to be done to have a "dry sump" and what the differences are. As well I'm going to build my RB26 to about 800hp track car, and I'm going to run 2 huge oil coolers. Will that be too cold for the engine on rainly days, or should I invest in a peice that goes inbetween the oil filter and oil coolers that only opens up when a certain temp is hit, or is that a waste of time cause it will always be too hot?

            I think HKS makes it, but I've seen it on www.rhdjapan.com

            And what is the "1.5mm restrictor" that you guys keep mentioning and where does it go?:bow down:

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            • #7
              you tap the factory restrictor in and wack this one on top to furthur restrict oil flow to the head.

              You can see I already taped my factory restrictor down, just need to throw the new unit in.

              ALLEN PETERSEN
              Number (604) 961-2449
              4XTOYS/ Lower Mainland Skyline Service and aftermarket RB parts.
              RB30`s for sale!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by BeeGTR View Post
                Great write up guys thanks!!!

                Could you please elaborate on what needs to be done to have a "dry sump" and what the differences are. As well I'm going to build my RB26 to about 800hp track car, and I'm going to run 2 huge oil coolers. Will that be too cold for the engine on rainly days, or should I invest in a peice that goes inbetween the oil filter and oil coolers that only opens up when a certain temp is hit, or is that a waste of time cause it will always be too hot?
                I haven't personally got any experience with dry sump, but I'll bet the guys at XS Engineering have.

                Regarding oil temperature, I'd definately get the thermostat. It bypasses the cooler(s) until oil gets up to operating temp, which is critical for adequate oil supply to your engine.

                Cheers,
                Dan
                sigpic
                The Beaumont Connection

                Comment


                • #9
                  why is the restrictor necessary? I'm assuming it helps increase oil pressure? or do the high-flow pumps just pump too much oil and fill the heads without it?
                  1992 GTR - 2.7L, GT2871R's, forged bottom end, big valves, 270* cams, R34 getrag
                  2000 Honda Insight - 70+mpg daily driver
                  2003 Sierra 2500HD Diesel - Tow vehicle

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Terrh View Post
                    why is the restrictor necessary? I'm assuming it helps increase oil pressure? or do the high-flow pumps just pump too much oil and fill the heads without it?
                    Its to limit the oil to the head... that is why the rear oil drainback is recommended, as is "massaging" the oil drain valleys.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 0piston View Post
                      Its to limit the oil to the head... that is why the rear oil drainback is recommended, as is "massaging" the oil drain valleys.
                      What is the rear oil drainback? so the point of the restrictor is to slow down the flow of the oil through the block from the increase in pressure caused by the new pump. Cause if the oil flows to fast it doesn't have sufficient time to cool when it gets through the coolers????? (is that right?)

                      I have also heard of having a primary and secondary oil filter. Something about the primary filter takes out 90% of the particles and the secondary removes the 10% left? Has anyone else heard of that? And is it worth it?

                      -jdms13rhd-

                      Great pic thanks! is there only one to install? or multiple?


                      -Dan-

                      Thanks! I will definately get the thermostat! But it will be nice to have the extra cooling power if the engine needs it!

                      I've never had an oil cooler before, so What extra steps need to be taken to change the oil? Because normally I prime the new filter before I install it so the engine doesn't run dry for a bit, but because of the thermostat bypass, would you have to unhook a line on the oil cooler side and blow out the old oil left in the coolers? Or do people just leave the old oil in the coolers, and change most of it, or do people empty the coolers, then let the engine pump new oil through the coolers when the oil gets up to temp, then just add more oil???? Please advise

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BeeGTR View Post
                        -jdms13rhd-

                        Great pic thanks! is there only one to install? or multiple?
                        only one on the rb26.


                        The restrictor restricts oil flow to the head. When using any high flow oil pump it's a good idea to use this. Better to have the oil in the bottom of the sump than up in the head, just makes sence. If the oil is starved at the pick up in the sump than your going to have problems. Adding the restrictor helps keep the oil where it needs to be most.

                        As for the rear oil drain there is one from factory. At the rear of the cylinder head and the block itself there is a casting which is just a hole for the oil to drain back to the sump. There is an aftermarket mod that lots of people run which is a very simple thing really. To do that you remove the frost plug on the rear of the head and attach a braded line to the area that the frost plug is down to the sump to further help oil drain from the head to the sump. Some people even die graind and smooth out the castings on the factory drain and all over the the other castings inside the block to help the oil slip and slide a lil more easier. I've never done that personally :P Here is a pic of the drain on the rear of the head where the frost plug normally sits. Just not pictured the braded line to the sump is all but you get the idea. G-Force helping oil drain :P

                        ALLEN PETERSEN
                        Number (604) 961-2449
                        4XTOYS/ Lower Mainland Skyline Service and aftermarket RB parts.
                        RB30`s for sale!

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                        • #13
                          jdms13rhd
                          where is your return from the head drain on the sump? Above or below oil line? Front/side/rear on the sump?

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                          • #14
                            http://tyndago.googlepages.com/rb26dettoiling
                            Sean Morris



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                            • #15
                              Resurrect my pretty.

                              How many people on here use the nismo oil pump?
                              90 Nissan Skyline Gt-r

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